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paid vs vollies
need some advice on how to get the paid guys to work better with the vollies.here at this dept it seems like the paid guys are running off all the vollies, i have been with this dept for about 20 years and before we went paid we were aleast 50 strong on the vollies, as the years went on and we become an paid dept the vollies seem to be dropping off at an great deal,we are down to about 10 maybe 15 vollies left. can i get some oppions from others on getting the vollies back and working with the paid part of the department????.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Moose on
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Bulldog...I will say this in the most sincere way possible and with no disrespect to anyone...most volunteer firefighters out there do notDeserveto call themselves firefighters, plain and simple. Why is it that people think if you join a volunteer fire department it makes you a firefighter?? Simple membership alone should not grant you the title of "Firefighter". Training, hands on experience in the field, and listening to senior firefighters and officers is what makes you earn the right to be called a firefighter. In my first department when you joined you were called a "Probationary Member" (notice there is no word "Firefighter" in the title? Thats because they arent yet at this point so they are a "Member") You are then expected to take and PASS the firefighter I training within one year of joining. During that year you wear yellow helmets with yellow shields with the term "Probationary Member" on it (while everyone else wore black for firefighter, red for line officer and white for chief) After you complete the training, you are required to attend 35% of the department training at which time you are put through the ringer by the officers and tested to see what you learned. If these officers feel you didnt learn enough or thought you were too cocky, they made you take the training again. If you were lucky enough to make it through the department training program you were granted permission to respond to fires, provided you were teamed up with an officer and a senior firefighter. During these fires your job was simple...shut up, do what your told and learn from them. If you performed well at these fires and the officers gave their stamp of approval, you were issued regular turnouts and granted the title of "Firefighter".
Than I moved to where I am now........my god what a difference. In my first year here I have seen newer members join (they were 18, 19 years old) and they were given turnouts and were allowed to respond on the rigs to calls immediately without any training. When they took a Firefighter I course they were "Interior Firefighters" instantly and were not supposed to learn from their senior members first. Now we have young, cocky members out there running around with their chests puffed out telling our career brothers and sisters "Its not fair, we are firefighters too, we do the same thing you do!!".............Brother, volunteers, for the most part, do NOT come anywhere close to what a career firefighter has to do. The training I went through in my first department was rigorous, thorough, and complete and it trained me to be a firefighter. Ask any of the newbies in my current department to go through the same training and they would whine and complain and use family and full time job as an excuse, but then are quick to puff their chests out and compare themselves to the career firefighter??? I dont think so.
People are realizing one thing bulldog, and thats you get better service from someone who does something for a living than from someone who only volunteers their free time when their wives/husbands allow them to or when there isnt a birthday party or anniversarry to worry about. Career firefighters show up to every call, and when they get there they know what to do to safely mitigate the incident because they train weekly...not semi-annually or monthly, WEEKLY. And in order for a career firefighter to start climbing through the ranks of officer they need to take yet more training and pass more tests, whereas the volunteer just needs to buy enough beer and kiss enough ass to get the votes and voila!! You are an officer!
Its a scary thing, especially since I myself am a volunteer and have never been a career firefighter, yet I am smart enough to realize that what we provide is not what the people need. I have 22 years experience, have attained numerous titles including Firefighter II, Haz-Mat Tech Basic and others, too many to list, yet I myself have probably not reached the level of what most career firefighters obtain, and I admit it freely. Why cant others? We can still exist together, we (as volunteers) just need to be more open minded, put egos and pride to the side and realize that we need more training, more experience, tougher qualifications to be a volunteer officer and the ability to listen to what our career brothers and sisters are telling us both in the station and at the fires. It should be a no brainer, they have more training so they tell me what to do, I have done it before at large fires where we have worked with career firefighters and have had no issue with them and I have Learned from them.
Take the next step, be the better volunteer and approach the career staff at your station and tell them you are ready to shut up and learn, see what they say.
We can work together.
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Permalink Reply by Patti Walz on
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Choking...
Trying to not be a smart ass now.....
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Permalink Reply by Brian J. on
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Just to let you in on some info. The majority of recruit schools, when completed, are FFII, hazmat ops, and wmd. Along with lots of physical training. In the department I am a fire officer in, we train weekly, require FFI within a year of completing our recruit class. I put my bunker pants on the same way everyone else does! One leg at a time! Some of your statements are just plain ignorant. If your senior members aren't stepping up to the plate to teach the younger generation that is the problem. This whole paid vs. vollie crap is just what it is crap!!
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Permalink Reply by Charles Walker on
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my opinion is that there is NO dedication to departments any more by most of there volunteers. when i first started 13 years ago when i was 18. i made it my goal to go through every fire school offered regardless of how far of a drive it was. My current department has 24 members and the best show out period was on a false alarm structure fire and it was 13 people. Christmas Eve had a structure fire 5 showed up. the asst. chief was the last one to show. upon his arrival fire was under control, ( was a shed with propane and atv's in it ). people just want to say i'm a firefighter. which i agree is a crock, but as with my current dept we have no written SOP'S. and no sight of any in the near future, our chief is a great man but has no help from any line officers. I have a friend that is a paid guy and volunteers for 3 different depts in the county. and i have called him on the phone from a scene and asked for advice and he came out to help. just my 2 cents.
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Permalink Reply by Bulldog324 on
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look john i respect your comments but this is not an pissing contest about who is better than the other or who has an bigger ##$$$ than the other. this is not about overtime and trainning, we all get the same trainning here just as the paid guys the vollie do the same trainning, this is about trying to get both sides of the department working toghter, now i have been the fire service for over 25 years, i have been with this department for about 20 of them. im just trying to get both side toghter as an team, just like we said in the military one fight one team.i am not as you say soley blaming the paid guys but if you have been at this department and seen some of the stuff, it would make you wonder to. im not saying the vollies are any better either i have been to the station and seen the vollies just sit around and do nothing while the paid guy are out busting their ass getting station duties done.so this isent about that this is about trying to get them to work togher as an team.
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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on
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Moose,
What a huge pile of excrement. Because you have been involved in a department with no standards, no recruit training, no control it seems at all, you broad stroke all volly FDs.
I would suggest until you have a bigger picture of the firefighting world you refrain fom posting such nonsense.
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By the way I AM a career fiefighter, as well as a POC firefighter on 2 other FDs. I see it from both sides, and to be BRUTALLY honest it is every bit as ludicrous to say that evey career firefighter is to be admired for his ability as it is to discount every volunteer firefighter just because they are a volunteer.
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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this is not an pissing contest about who is better than the other or who has an bigger ##$$$ than the other
Never said it was, just that there is always more to a story than what you have pointed out.
i am not as you say soley blaming the paid guys but if you have been at this department and seen some of the stuff, it would make you wonder to. im not saying the vollies are any better either i have been to the station and seen the vollies just sit around and do nothing while the paid guy are out busting their ass getting station duties done.so this isent about that this is about trying to get them to work togher as an team.
Now there is a little more and even some difference to the original question at hand. You did say that it seems like the paid guys are running off the vollies, of which I did question. You're right, I don't know the stuff going on with your particular dept, I can only speak from my experiences and interactions from which I observed....of which always entails a bigger picture.
The reality is there is more to the details of your question than just paid guys running off the vollies. I do not, nor will not sit here and defend one over the other because I don't know the circumstances....yet it is those circumstances that YOU need to be looking at in order to get an answer to your question. There is more than just training and OT in question and goes beyond just one group running out the other.
You neglected to address the other questions concerning hiring standards, physicals, training (not just dept training) certifications, education, quotas, and so forth. Bottom line is there typically tends to be several contributing factors at hand that can be easily looked at and addressed moreso than believing it is just paid guys running off vollies. In fact, has it perhaps occurred to you that THAT is the easy BS excuse for one leaving as opposed to other realities? Could it be it is easier for someone to gripe about career guys as opposed to say there is no longer drinking in the firehouse, or a FF is expected to meet certain requirements, or the "good ol boys" system is no more?
Let's look beyond that, what is the call volume and nature of calls? Is EMS a factor? Could it be you are seeing more calls? Could it be the demand for services goes beyond what the volunteers can provide? Your profile says you are near St Mary's GA....what are the changes from there? Having been stationed in Mayport, FL and going into St Mary's etc a few times, there really isn't much to the area other than the military. Could it be people need to work further from home (say Jacksonville) and unavailble for calls while working? Could it be an aging population has an affect on increased calls? Could it be that several volunteers happen to be military folks who now can't easily commit to the FD requirements as well as duty?
There is more to the overall picture than what you are presenting here. Having served in the Navy myself I understand the ooorah talk kof one unit and so forth, but I also know the realities of service life, despite the oorah talk there is still disparities and internal issues. The challenge is to identify all circumstances involved and look at the overall picture......the same thing applies here. There is more to the issue of a reduced volunteer force than just paid guys driving them off...you just aren't embelishing it.
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Can you show me in my post where I said "Every" volunteer firefighter should be discounted?? Back up your comments and I will show respect for you.
I stated that most volunteers, not all, do not apply themselves and train the way they should. They come up with every excuse in the book for why they can not train, yet when it comes time to compare themselves to career standards, they feel they are the same. They are not.
My comments were based on 22 years experience in 4 different fire departments, 2 of those four were large departments with over 100 members averaging 300-400 fires a year, so in your own words, how big of a picture do you want me to see? I have worked with career departments on large fires before, and I have talked to career officers at station when i was younger and had discussions with them, I do not understand your baseless assault on my post. Maybe you have thin skin??
I stand by my post because I feel most volunteers across the country refuse to take the training they need and yet they strut around calling themselves firefighters. If you dont like what I said thats your right and I wont insult you when you share your opinions. I am currently Captain in a department I just transferred to a year ago from a much larger department. I just started a new training program and will be enforcing it and reaching out to the younger members for guidance and hopefully they will accept it.
Choking...
Trying to not be a smart ass now.....
Im sorry, but I have no respect for people in these forums that post garbage like this. If you have a problem with my post than suck it up, act like a professional, and reply here with respectful comments or send me a PM, I will be glad to talk about it, but not in a childish way in a forum like this where we are supposed to discuss things like adults.
Send me a PM and enlighten me.
Stay Safe.
Just to let you in on some info. The majority of recruit schools, when completed, are FFII, hazmat ops, and wmd. Along with lots of physical training. In the department I am a fire officer in, we train weekly, require FFI within a year of completing our recruit class. I put my bunker pants on the same way everyone else does! One leg at a time! Some of your statements are just plain ignorant. If your senior members aren't stepping up to the plate to teach the younger generation that is the problem. This whole paid vs. vollie crap is just what it is crap!!Again, if you read my post carefully, you would clearly see I stated that "Most" volunteers have issues with training, no where did I say "Every" volunteer. People need to grow thicker skin and realize the true problem with the volunteer fire service, and thats the lack of training in most departments. Obviously in your department it is a good training program and I salute you and your department for its efforts. But to call my post "Ignorant"??? Maybe you should read yours and reply to my post when you are not all upset and angered and assume that my post was aimed at you and your department only.Most volunteers (Notice my wording, I did not say EVERY) make excuse after excuse as to why they cant train every week, yet when the tones go off and there is a fire they are suddenly available to fight a fire? I have heard some guys give excuses on drill night like "Im going to the dentist" or "I will be taking my wife to the hospital and will not be available" but then an hour later when drill is about to start there is a house fire and they show up...and yet my comment is an ignorant one??I am trying to voice my opinion that volunteers need to train like our career cohorts and take it more seriously or stop coming on here every time someone makes a comment like mine and get their panties in a bunch. Grow thicker skin and open your mind, look around you and see what other departments are doing before you all say I need to take a bigger look at the overall picture...I have, and I dont like what I see. Ever wonder why the LODD rate is still high for volunteers?
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I agree Charles, the SOP's are another issue. I too belong to a small department now with very little in the form of written SOP's, and after being in a bigger department its a big let down. I agree with you, the dedication and commitment is long gone, and its a shame.
Question for you about your buddy, in your state you are aloud to be a member of more than one department? The only reason I ask is because my father-in-law is a career firefighter and he tried to join the local volunteer department where his hunting cabin is and was told that in my state you cant be a member of two departments because of the benefits and retirement being an issue. Thanks in advance for your answer and stay safe.
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yes, brian in my state you can be on more than one dept depending on the chiefs from each dept. My dept covers approx 208 sq miles and has two stations in two different towns. we have one chief 2 asst chiefs and 4 capt. and have people out of both stations that respond to both towns calls depending on time of day and my station responds to all structure fires with the depts only tanker when the other station is paged. but its all one big dept. but yes my friend is a career ff, vollie for 2 other dept and asst chief for the 3rd dept.
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Permalink Reply by hydrant humper on
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The "Paid vs. Volunteer topic" always seems to pop up on most sites I log onto it seems. I am a fulltime firefighter for a department of more than 1100 firemen AND I volunteer for a department of less than 30 firemen, so I see both sides of the topic. As a fire instructor, I have noticed there is usually a lack of joint training between the two. Paid departments seem to train between 8-5pm whereas most vollies train between 6-10pm. This keeps the two somewhat separated from one another. The lack of knowing the people you respond with often leads to problems.
As a paid fireman, I cannot stomp on the volunteer departments. When volunteer deparments in my area arrive onscene of an emergency, we bring with us mechanics, electricains, elevator repairmen, heavy equipment operators, scuba diving instructors, mechanical engineers, a chemist, nurses, and even a state senator !! ALL of these volunteer firemen bring something unique to the table. It is a great benefit for me to know these people and what they are capable of. The common thread is that we all need to train together so that we dont have the chemist directing traffic at a hazmat scene while the scuba instructor tries to control the chemicals.
sorry I got off the subject a little........so........BACK TO THE QUESTION...........one of the great things about being volunteer in the fire department is the chance to know that what you do actually makes a difference. Sometime when there are paid guys at the station, the volunteer may not have the chance to drive the truck, command the scene, or be the first line in the door. This can make some start to lose interest a little. I dont know how your department is set up, but Ive seen some around here have one engine for the paid guys to respond, while the volunteers respond a different engine. This still gives them " a truck of thier own". They drive it, are responsible for it, have to check it out and maintain all the equipment. Its almost like having a paid AND volunteer department housed in the same station (even though you are the same department). I've also seen some places that assign the volunteers to respond the ladder truck. This allows all the paid guys to respond as a full engine company while the volunteers are answering up the ladder a few seconds behind them.
As I said earlier, Im not sure how your deparment is set up, so it has to be something unique to your department structure. Paid guys are great to have, just be sure you leave some stuff for the volunteers to do. If your paid firemen work 24hours, start having them train in the evenings with the volunteers. You have to bridge that gap between the two somehow. Its also vital for many paid guys to remember that they were volunteers at one time in thier life, thats probably is what led them to the fire service as a career. Just realize that there is a difference between being a volunteer and a paid fireman, but one is not better than the other. Dont forget that one of those volunteers may become your next paid fireman.......if you treat him right ! Hope I helped you a little !!
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