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Im not inquiring this to be "squirrelly" but my engine co and I were trying to find audio tapes to the cold storage fire in worcester. I have heard you can learn alot from this tradgic incident and it could possiblly bring a training topic in my firehouse. thanks in advance.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by chris foote on
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so i've heard. i believe in the theory of learning from so called "mistakes" or accidents. things in the fire service have came along way since then but for some reason our brothers are still dying. I think people become complacent or to comfortable if you will.
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no it doesnt, i just looked all that up but still no luck. its all youtube videos or articles from it. no audio tapes
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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I've been told that America loses approx. 100 firefighters in a lodd while the rest of the world only loses 50. I don't know about you but that dosent sit right with me.
The last couple years the number of LODDs was below 100. However, once again, one has to look at the definition of an LODD, specically the 24 hour time difference. This means there is a good number of LODDs that occur outside the fire scene, station, etc. I don't know, but don't believe the rest of the world uses the same definitions. The size, population density, and space differences also comes into play, you have to look at the bigger picture.
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Out of curiousity, what are you hoping to find on the audio tapes that you can't find out from reports? I agree about learning from others, but there is also an aspect of applying things to your own area. Meaning that you have to look at your make up, the buildings in your area, and so forth. Much of the lessons learned from this fire, and similar significant fires are found in the "lessons learned" portion of a NIOSH report. Typically, many aspects are similar in many different incidents, and can be as much, if not more valuable than listening to audio tapes.
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Permalink Reply by Sparky3317 on
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Another way to learn about the cold storage fire in Worcester is read 3000 degrees. Its an amazing book and tells the story from people who were there.
You can also contact Worcester Fires Training Division, after the cold storage fire occured the fire department put together alot of training and firefighter safety concepts that have been taught at conferences around the country.
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There definately have been some stupid things and there are two LODDs from last year I define as absolutely stupid and that is the guys racing each other coming from training. There are some calls that make you look at the circumstances and focus on the lessons learned.....and then you have the accidents waiting to happen where people are too thick between the ears to see the issue.....such as using children on the fireground.
No there is much to strive for and to work towards, but personally, when I keep hearing how the U.S. is compared to the rest of the world in regards to LODDs or just the focus on the number of LODDs, it makes me wonder if those talking look at things in context.
Personally if you truly want to see a decrease in LODDs, change the definition and cut out or reduce the 24 hour benchmark. The only issue with that is that it affects the benefits and so forth, so you get a catch 22.
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we listen to the tapes to see if we can tell what went wrong or what could of been done different kind of like critiquing. ive seen the niosh study and it makes me sick to my stomach. i think we do have alot of under expierenced people. i guess kinda what we would call ourself's the new generation. it all reverts back to how they were trained and how they apply thier knowledge and training. im still very young in my carrer and have alot to learn but im okay with that cause you cant be a know it all in this job..bottom line it'll get you hurt. good post all of yall, yall seem like a bunch of intelligent guys.
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True as far as response goes.....it is always important to remember you are good to nobody if you don't arrive safely.
Being in shape is another aspect, although a bit smaller. I agree that a dept should conform to the physical standards as set forth by NFPA, but to prevent this from a cost factor and get what you can take gripe fest....the exposure issue does hold true. Meaning a FF today is typically exposed to many more chemicals than when firefighting was done without an SCBA....which exposure can also lead to cardiac issues. Also the fact remains our turnouts today are much better than in the past, but also retain heat, thus leading to extra stressors than in the past. Which comes down to a decent rehab, which in turn leads to personnel on the scene.
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Listening to their tapes really probably wouldn't do you much good. I don't mean this in a bad way, but unless you understand their terminology, their operations, their staffing and so forth, there really isn't much benefit to listening to the tapes. The facts are known, you had a crew going in for a search, got lost called a MAYDAY, second crew goes in etc, and so forth until the battalion chief had to physically stand on the stairs to prevent anyone else to go in.
Knowing that, what did you learn?
Hearing this, what do expect to learn?
Let me now ask you this, do you and your crew know how to call a MAYDAY?
Do you know how to remove a downed FF?
Do you know how to do a bailout?
Do you know how to remove a downed FF from a second story, a basement, Denver drill?
I don't mean to come off as an asshole here, but I truly do believe there is more to apply from the lessons learned vs hearing the audio tapes. If looking for a communication drill try something as simple as putting cones in a configuration in one area, have some descripe where they are going and have the rest of the crew make a diagram of the pattern described....you would be surprised. Another good comm drill is going through a confined space simulator with various scenarious decribed like "You are lost" or "You lost water" etc and determine if it is a MAYDAY or Emergency message. Listening on the other side should give a good idea of the communications within your own crew.
Baically there is more one can truly learn from without listening to the actual audio of a tragic event.
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