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New Cincinnati Fire Chief Says He Will 'Hire More Women'
Referring to the story here on FireEMSBlogs.com do you think it is okay for a newly appointed fire chief to say he will 'hire more women'? Doesn't this put the newly hired women in the spotlight and at an unfair disadvantage in the fire stations? I believe Cincy has several dozen women working in 26 stations.
Just thought it was an odd statement.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Greenman on
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Maybe it has something to do with being told from toddler-hood that "boys are Firefighters and girls are nurses."
Maybe they just don't want to put up with the sexism, sexual harassment and B.S. that go with having to work with a bunch of guys who have been told since toddler-hood that "boys are Firefighters and girls are nurses."
Maybe they don't want to be thought of as "dykes," "Butches" or just plain-old lesbians because they happen to Firefighters, because people have been taught since toddler-hood that "boys are Firefighters and girls are nurses." I see references to that mentality all over on here and other forums quite often. (i.e. "why would a woman want to be a Firefighter?" one answer, "to meet women.").
Or maybe they don't want to be thought of a sluts, whores or loose simply because they are Firefighters. (i.e. "what would a woman want to be a Firefighter?" one answer, "to meet men.").
If you teach someone that "only boys do that job from the time someone is old enough to talk, that is what they are going to believe. Irregardless of reality.
I don't think this is about simply hiring women off the street today to be Firefighters, it's about changing the mindset of people from "only boys are Firefighters" to "Boys and Girls can be Firefighters or nurses."
What I notice from the fact that big cities have 1.5-4.5% female Firefighters (Minneapolis excepted, with 15%) and rural and volunteer fire departments having anywhere from 1.5 -20% female Firefighters it seems to me that when Firefighting is a job, Fire Departments just don't pay enough for women to put up with the Bullshit, but when its about serving your community and neighbors it's a different story.
Greenman
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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Greenman,
I disagree with you. Studies have shown that boy are, by their nature, more boisterous, more aggressive in play and most often will take the truck over the doll. There are physiological and developmental differences between boys and girls.
Males tend to be more competitive, more aggressive, more adrenaline junkies and greater risk takers. It's my experience and studies confirm that.
As for who tells whom what they can be when they grow up, blame the parents, don't blame the fire service. Girls prefer the company of girls and boy prefer the company of boys, right up until around puberty. And even then, who are typically the school athletes? Who are the ones that are out dirt biking, hunting, camping and raising hell?
For a woman to want to join the fire service, and to become a firefighter means she has to be at least as smart as the smartest guy, as strong and physically fit as most of the others and have the personal motivation to want to be a firefighter, to accept living in what is mostly a man's world and deal with the shithead attitudes that goes along with it. When a women does that she's head and shoulders above her peers because she's not just 'number 10' on the list. She stood out.
This isn't to say she should have to listen to sexist bullshit but the reality is, the fire service by it's nature is a rough and tumble world, not one for the faint hearted. It can be life or death and doesn't and can not, operate on consensus (which is the way many woman base decisions on).
It can't be denied that the fire service once was (and in many places still is) a boys club but the reality is, it is mostly a man's job. It does require intelligence (but not exclusively, based on so many of the topics, discussions and replies I read on FFN), it requires team work (which males tend to grow up learning), but mostly it's a job about balls, strength and stamina.
And about your percentages of women in paid and volunteer departments: Paid department jobs are highly competitive and the top performers are picked, it makes sense when the applicant pool is so large; In volunteer departments, many operate on an open door policy and whomever walks in is accepted. Standards for paid versus volunteer are significantly different as is the need.
When you have a pool of 1000 applicants for 20 paying jobs it only makes sense to pick the best, volunteer departments don't have that luxury. This doesn't mean that women aren't or can't be capable firefighters, they can and are but I strongly suspect that no volunteer department would turn down a male applicant in favor of a female one.
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Permalink Reply by Tyler Lyons on
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How about whoever gets a higher score on the tests and physicals and oral boards gets hired. Thats equal oportunity. Not equal oportunity to a certain race or gender and then everyone else.
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Call it what you will, but if you don't have it, eventually the luster of Firefighting will wear off and you'll move on to a job better suited to you.
All I was trying to say is don't limit recruiting to only males, as has been done for so long wen there are plenty of females who would make great Firefighters, but first they have to un-learn the idea that Firefighting is a "male occupation" which means you do have to target them for recruiting to get the message to them.
Targeting recruitment towards one group or another is not the same a "affirmative action" or "hiring females over males." Once they apply, they are just an applicant and all applicants should be on an equal field.
Greenman
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I strongly doubt any volunteer department would turn down any applicant these days, male or female.
As for who tells girls what jobs are "men's jobs" and which are "women's jobs" I don't blame the Fire Service at all. In fact the fire service has been trying for years to tel girls, "you can do this too." I do blame the parents, but also Aunts, Uncles, Grandparents and pop culture. There's nothing with a girl being feminine and being able to go camping, hunting and fishing, but that isn't what pop culture would have you believe.
Girls today are much more aggressive, competitive and competitive today than they were when many of the studies about gender roles were first completed because of factors such as Title IX, the role of sports on TV, and a general change in attitudes within our society since the 1970's. Recruiting more women to apply to be Firefighters is simply the Fire Service bringing the message that Firefighting is also an option for some women to this audience.
You're right also in saying that the woman who can put up with the boy's club attitude and survive is that much stronger for it and is more competitive than is she didn't have to overcome that element of the Fire Service.
Greenman
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I agree that society does have a strong impact on gender and employment/career choices but I still believe that males are more intrinsically inclined towards the fire service for all the reasons I listed earlier.
And I further agree that changes in society have led towards wider career paths for women. More women join the military and many make it a career, but the job security and education and promotional opportunities make it attractive choice. In the fire service there really is only one job description, firefighter. And it is hot, hard, physical and dangerous.
Frankly I don't think societal expectations are all that relevant in whether a woman wants to become a firefighter, mostly I believe it's an individual's choice to pursue such a physically demanding career and I think that, generally speaking, women are just less inclined for this kind of work.
On a related note:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/25/AR2...
"Of the 42 countries that operate submarines, Sweden, Spain, Norway, Canada and Australia allow women to serve on them, although those countries' diesel submarines go to sea for shorter periods than the nuclear submarines operated by the U.S. Navy."
But then, while it involves close quarters, it doesn't require the same physical strength and stamina that (structural) firefighting does.
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Permalink Reply by WestPhilly on
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Hiring process - equal. Recruiting process - "targeted". Bullshit.
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Really, all I was saying is that I think is good to try to recruit more women to check out the Fire Service. Recruiting is just an invitation to apply, and if you make the cut, you can become a Firefighter. If you can't then thanks for applying.
All that targeting women for recruitment does is get the attention of those women who may not have considered it as a career choice before. Chief Braun of Cincinnati is going one step further and wants to deliver that message to girls who may consider firefighting when they are grown in 8-10 years.
It is, as always up to the individual to decide what career they wish to pursue.
Haivng been in the military in a field with many women, and having deployed and spent a lot of time in the field with women, I know they can do that job as well as any man I've served with. As a supervisor I very much preferred female Soldiers as subordinates because they consistently accomplished the mission faster and better then many male Soldiers. In the Fire Service, the women who do make the choice to be Firefighters and make the cut are determined, tough individuals.
Women have been serving aboard U.S. Naval vessels for a long time, and its no surprise that they already serve aboard subs in our allies' navies. Having lived abroad for several years, I can tell you that we are much less sophisticated than many of our allies in integrating women into our military services....which goes back to the gender stereotypes I mentioned earlier.
Anyway, I'm not trying to lay blame, it is what it is, but where is the harm in telling young women and girls "here's another option for you if you're tough enough and strong enough?"
Just my two cents. If you disagree, I respect that. But I also don't really care.
Greenman
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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To interpret it literally, if he hires two women during his tenure as Fire Chief, then he's literally kept his promise.
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not bullshit.
Recruiting means, "come apply."
Hiring means, "fill out a W-4."
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