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Permalink Reply by FETC on September 17, 2009 at 11:20am

State law usually dictates the Fire Chief is ultimately responsible for everything. In his absence, the officer in charge of an incident is next in command. Everyone will be sued.

Your answer is easy, if he is worried about his liability, he needs to find another profession.

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Permalink Reply by Jake Luker on September 17, 2009 at 11:23am

That's just it... he's not really worried about his liability... He more or less is taking a "it'll never happen to me" attitude towards it. To quote him, "if you go through life worrying someone is gonna sue you, you'll be going through life scared to death."

I tried to tell him that it's not so much being scared you'll be sued, instead, taking more CYA (cover your a$$) actions so if something does happen, you've erred on the side of caution...

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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on September 17, 2009 at 12:01pm

Lives have been lost and injuries sustained even when the most qualified, responsible and best leaders were in charge of a scene...does it mean they lost their careers or were sued? No. This is still an inherently dangerous job and despite the best training out there, the best advances in safety, the best risk/benefit analysis, sometimes things just go to hell. Our department personally lived through that when we lost one of our own. The investigation that took place interviewed every single person on the scene, from the IC to the most junior FF, dispatch records and communications from the scene, SOGs, training records and so forth, the IC that day is still on the job.

While responsibilty does fall on the IC, as mentioned the responsibilty also falls upon the fire chief. This is why there are things in place like SOGS/P, training records, standing orders and so forth, because when those are followed and when shit does hit the fan, it shows that such things were followed and that sometimes despite our best efforts, things go wrong.

Another factor is that while the IC may be ultimately responsible, each individual on the fireground does share the responsibilty of knowing and following such SOGs/P and standing orders. If there is something addressed about freelancing and the FF deciding to be a "hero" gets themself into trouble, is it really the IC's fault? No, it is that individual FF. This older FF you mention does have a point, an IC can really only deal with the information they are supplied with. The IC can not be outside the building and have a good working knowledge of conditions and events occurring inside. It is up the the company officers to supply and paint that picture for the IC to make the best strategy. It is up to company officers to look out for their crewmembers. It is up to indivdual firefighters to look out for each other, to operate as trained, to inform of changing conditions and share the accountability.

Responsibilty falls upon everyone on the scene. Where issues do come up is when conditions present that would scream defensive and the order is given to go offensive. If a company officers relays a safety concern like a potential collapse and crews are still sent inside and so forth. However, when things have gone bad and all SOG/P's, protocols, orders and so forth are done as trained, it is hard to prove neglect or show irresponsibility. We see such stuff daily in EMS...people sue all the time, even when protocols are followed, but if those protocols are followed, it is tough for a lawyer or investigator to say so and so was irresponsible.

Despite our best efforts, despite our best training, despite our best education, despite our best knowledge, sometimes things just go wrong. The best way for a dept to be ready...ensure SOG/P's are in place and applicible, ensure people follow such SOG/Ps, ensure training standards are met and training records kept up to date. Ensure accountability of crewmembers, that is EVERYONE's responsibility. Following the guidelines, orders, standing orders, operating as trained is everyone's responsibilty and everyone must be ready to accept that. If one can't...it is more than just an IC who should look for another job....it is every single FF, from the most senior chief to the newest probie...if you can't follow the rules established...this is not the job for you.

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Permalink Reply by Jake Luker on September 17, 2009 at 12:18pm

Very good points and great post!! Your insight is helpful and somewhat reassuring.. :-)

I agree with everything you're saying. However, my one "worry" is in your last paragraph. Lots of those things exist (SOGs, training guidelines, etc.), but are not up to date, they leave a lot to be desired, and/or are not followed altogether...

I guess this gives me direction on what we need to work on.. :-)

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Permalink Reply by Smoke Eater on September 17, 2009 at 3:15pm

The IC is the one who is responsible for all actions on a fire scene. If he feels that he cannot keep an eye on everyone then he needs to utilize his other officers and break the scene up into divisions. The officer of each division reports to the IC and he in turn tells them what he wants done and they carry out that task. Also another good officer to have around is the safety officer who basically walks around the scene looking for any unsafe conditions and behaviors and reports his findings to the IC so he can adjust his plan of action accordingly.

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Permalink Reply by George L. Phelps Jr on September 17, 2009 at 3:24pm

Well might i suggest that you start with the FEMA National Incident Management Systems ( NIMS )training. Everyone on you dept. should take this training. Our dept. required everyone to take the NIMS 100, 200, 700, and 800. In this training you will find the answers to your question. Here is a link to that web site.

http://www.fema.gov/emergency/nims/NIMSTrainingCourses.shtm

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Permalink Reply by Jake Luker on September 17, 2009 at 4:40pm

Thanks for the advice guys.. :-) I'm well aware of the NIMS system and training.. In fact, I've been trained to the 300 level, and the person in question has had 100, 200, 700 and 800... Yet he still doesn't get that he's responsible for everyone. Granted, as mentioned in a previous post, you can't control everyone's actions, and I understand that. To me it's as simple as limiting the span of control from 3-7, optimally 5. This concept is something our dept is bad about doing, and the person in question comes from an older school of thought, so this is probably part of the problem. When I joined, "the way they used to do it" was that as soon as the engine stopped rolling, everybody bailed off and did their own thing. Now, whether or not IC knew what they were doing, I'm not sure. I'd venture to say probably not, because many times, they were making entry before IC had a chance to make a 360 around the building. This always struck me as dangerous, even if the firefighters on the truck were all competent in their skills and knowledge. Accountability was essentially absent (we have tags, but seldom get used).

Again, this gives me direction in how and where I need to focus my efforts as an officer to improve the department..

Thanks!!! I'm always open to suggestion on how to do things better...

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