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L.D.H. "Love It, or Hate It"
I am wanting to start using LDH in our dept. and am wondering if I can convince the majority into changing their thought process. Let me add that we are in a rural area, and no departments that might provide aid uses LDH. Should we make the switch?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Chris Adams on
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The reality is 4" will give you the gpm you need and well friction loss is minimal so it will benifit if you do not have great hydrants as you will not loose what what you have coming in. If you have long lays then by the time you get any water gets through the 4"well it might not be much if your GPM out put is alot. I work for a large city in Californai so we never have this problem, but you need to do some trial runs and see what the benifits are?
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Permalink Reply by roy yoder on
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yea i agree about the caculator but the math don't lie even though us crusty old ff change a little harder than a church, you can count it as training but make yourself some fittings for gauges and flow rates and lay them out side and show them cause a picture paints a thousand words and you will still have some that still won't believe the show and always go to the reloading pain. WELL EXCUSE ME ITS A PAIN TO RELOAD ANY HOSE. GO BUY A REEL. check the weight between the two and check with those who use it now for tips FOR SOME REASON ISO GIVES YOU MORE CREDIT IN WATER FOR 5 INCH THAN 4 INCH. sometimes you can be the best ff and still not get credit for it. remember we used to fight structure fire with a 1 inch booster line and a 2.5 inch supply hose with no engine at the hydrant would supply that with a desent pressure. but as the btu have increased in the house so has the need for more water thus larger hose. THE ONLY WAY A FIRE DEPT. MAKES MONEY IS WITH ISO RATE LOWERED AND MONEY IN THE CITIZENS POCKET.
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Permalink Reply by John Kroll on
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In my state ISO didn't give us any difference in credit because of our upgrade to 5" we received the improvement due to improved water flow capabilities as demonstrated. Key word there meaning we actually started moving more water. I could go for days on changes I'd love to see for ISO and they are working to improved the schedule but please make no mistake, we did this for us. It is safer to hunt bear with a cannon than a slingshot and sometimes we're hunting bear on the fire scene. We can make it safer for all our firefighters by putting out the fire quickly. End of the day, be safe brothers.
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Permalink Reply by Brian Cohen on
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5" LDH is the best for rural areas. It allows you to lay/ extend your own hydrant system. We have layed as mush as 8,000' yes a mile and a half. Yes pickup is a pain in the ass, but you can have water where you need it.
I work with NFSO and we work with FD's across the nation showing how to lower PPC rates. We have lowered rural volunteer fd's to class 6, 5 and yes 4. Water is your number one need and how you get it there depends on your demands and avaiablity. Along with a few other items.
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Permalink Reply by Brian Dumser on
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We use 5" LDH. Love it. Hate re-bedding it!
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Permalink Reply by Pararescue on
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But humpin all that hose keeps you warm!
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Permalink Reply by chris foote on
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you could always go urban/rural by carrying say 500 ft of LDH and 500ft of smaller diameter like 2 1/2 or 3". i dont know what kinda of high hazard areas or buildings are in you district but some is always good if its cost effective. hope i could help.
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we recently went to 4" on some of our trucks but found many problems or "lack of" thinking beyond what we had. all our engines had 5" and we had problems supplying our ladder with 4". also if other trucks arent up to par you run into problems with adapters.lol. but yes 4" was nice while it lasted and much easier to reload.
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hey brian i sure wish you would have showed up before 1994 when we burnt down the plant here and all the mutual aid and our trucks only had 2.5 and 3 inch hose and had to pump 7/10 ths of a mile because the flood took out the water system, and as for as packing it back i hate all of it it don't matter what size but get over it its part of the job.
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Permalink Reply by Pierre-Louis Lamballais on
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Hi,
A few month ago, we've made some tests in Belgium. Each time, test were made with 200 meters so 656 feet of hose and we filled the tank of the truck from the hydrant.
1) connect 656 feet of 45mm hose line (1 3/4) between hydrant and truck. Seem stupid but the goal was to have data!
2) connect 656 feet of 70mm hose line (2 3/4)
3) connect 2 lines of 656 feet of 70mm (2 3/4)
4) connect 1 line of 656 feet of 110mm (4,33 inch)
Then we had repeat the same with nozzle flowing.
We see that the problem is not the line, but the hydrant. In the location where we where, using 4.33 inch was of no interest as the hydrant was not "good enought".
What I suggest is to test the hydrant to see if buying LDH is necessary.
There is also another point: we all talk of flowing water but this not as "easy". We flow water to extinguish, not for the pleasure of flowing. So we must take in account the water which is really used for extinction. For example, with a solid bore, the contact surface between heat and water,is small. The result is that about 80% of the water you flow has no effect against the fire. On the other side, a fog pattern has,an important contact surface and give a result of about 80% of water used for cooling.
This mean that, when 100 gallons of water goes out of the truck, only 20 will be used for extinction if you use solid bore, and 80 will be use for the same purpose if you use fog.
Depending on the way you use the tools, you need powerfull hydrant and LDH, as with another method, this is less usefull.
From the hydrant to the fire, the elements are linked together and each one depend on the other. You must think "global" to find the best solution, depending on your country, method, nozzle and so on.
Best regards
Pierre-Louis
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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on
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Pierre-Louis,
Sometimes a poor hydrant is as good a use for LDH as a good one. With less friction loss LDH will move ALL the water from a poor hydrant much farther than any smaller diameter hose.
To me your think globally is a nice concept, but a better one is to understand flow dynamics and friction loss.
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I agree perfectly. What our test was showing is that if your hydrant can't flow, enough water, buying LDH will help but a double line of smaller diameter can be enough. I agree that the key is friction loss. I now live in south-America and I'm very surprised of the complete "ignorance" about that.
But calculating and testing is the key, especially with the descreasing budget. If we can't "prove" , it would be hard.
Best regards
Pierre-Louis
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