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Firefighting Tactics in Homes Over 3000 Square Feet of Living Space
With the Untimely Death of Firefighter Glenn Allen, of the Los Angeles City Fire Department, I guess I would like to open a Discussion, asking for Tactics for "Larger than Life Homes in America". I know there is going to be a Presentation in Indianapolis, at FDIC, by someone from Brentwood, Tennessee, but I would like to ask for some open discussion here. To add "Insult to Injury, there has been a report, that most homes being purchased now, are actually Foreclosure homes, included in this dimensional size and larger. Does the proverbial 1.75" hoseline flow adequate amounts of water for these type Fires ? There is ahome near my home, where the Master Bedroom Suite exceeds 750 square feet, which is the same size as a small home. Also to add to the equation is that regardless if your local FD is Staffed 24/7, or volunteer responders, we still face the same problems. So what is your Opinions, Tactics or Views on this growing problem in America ? What do we need to do Folks..??
Thanks for your Thoughts and Concerns;
John M. Scheibel
Instructor of Applied Fire Sciences
NY State DHS-ES
Albany, NY
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by John M. Scheibel on
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Thanks Thad for your incite.
This was a subject, that has existed for many years, but really came to light with the unfortunate death in Los Angeles, of FF Allen. I agree with you that words create mindsets, example; House Fire, Commercial Fire..two different structures, but one signals smething Bigger, yet as you said, it could be much much smaller.
I look at the alarm, where FF Allen met his untimely death at, as not just a mega mansion, but actually THREE Mega-Mansions, of 4000 sq ft. My 2 Story home, with its 4 Bedrooms, 2.5 Baths, and a Two Car attached Garage, is 55% the size of One Floor of this "MEGA HOUSE".
In closing, yes this is a House fire, but the very rooms in homes like this, offers expanded Fireloading, Higher Catherdral Ceilings, and Wide Expansions of open area, to allow for Rapid Fire growth, versus the same area in a 1 Story, multi-office structure of the same 4000 sq ft.
Thank you again; Be SAFE, and keep this subject going Folks...We maynot be able to change the world, but incite and vision is important here. We are all sharing our experiences and revelations, to bring to this problem light and hopefully change in attitudes in this problem.
JOHN
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Permalink Reply by NOVAFireman on
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John,
My answer to " Does the proverbial 1.75" hoseline flow adequate amounts of water for these type Fires" is simply, it depends on what you have when you pull up.
95% of my first due at work is made up of McMansion homes. I've ran a number of fires in these homes ranging from kitchen fires, to total loses on arrival. Some of these fires have been within a 2 mile radius from our firehouse, but still managed to be well off on arrival.
If light weight construction wasn't bad enough, they normally only have about 6' of space between them.
Even though our engines are what I consider understaffed with 3 people, we have made good use of preconnected BlitzFire nozzles, and 2 1/2" lines with 1 1/8" tips to hold fires in check until other engines arrived.
Here are some videos for you.
News report on lightweight construction fires.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8s0yS2POQpI&playnext=1&list=...
3 homes well off on arrival.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6pk7K7AgIg
1st call was reported chimney fire, 1st arriving apparatus reported 2 houses off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUONXxvT1d4&feature=related
Another McMansion fire extending to an exposure.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPdpP-H4dts&feature=related
More examples.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2qpK8GvFFI&feature=BF&list=...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2SI789JKPQ&feature=related
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Thanks NOVA;
I consider your answer to be concise and correct. A friend of mine; who is a National Representative for a Nozzle Company; uses the analogy of fighting fire with the " Pull up and Battle with the Pre-con 150"... thus the quib for 1.75" line...just are we getting complacent and not "upping the alarm/waterflow"..
Thanks again.."No Backseat Quarterbacking" from me, just want to see what the views and responses from others are. This is all Valuable Information, and we are sharing our experiences...
JOHN
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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http://www.ci.green-bay.wi.us/Fire/documents/FINALReport.pdf
Our dept experienced an LODD in such a structure and have used this as a lessons learned. Yes, we do look at size up more importantly now, but it doesn't mean we wouldn't use a 1.75 line either. It really does depend upon what is showing on arrival. However, we also know to think about 2.5's as a first attack line, as well as calling a greater alarm right away. So for all practical purposes these are like small commercial structures.
I did see mention about sprinklers. In the same fire as linked above, the FF who died, Arnie's partner also left the dept on disability. Her story is linked below. But what does standout is when looking at the cost of building such homes, really how much more is it to put in a residential sprinkler???
http://firesprinklerinitiative.org/resources/faces-of-fire/jo-brink...
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Hi John;
Sorry for your Loss of 2 Valuable Firefighters to your agency. I too, lost 2 Close Friends in a similar type structure fire; The 2 FF's in Pompey Hill NY, in Year 2002. Timothy J. (TJ) Lynch, was One of my Students at that time, and John (Gino) Giachetti, was One of my Right Hand people, when I taught in Manlius. As in your case, "The Hurt and Losses Still Exist". Their deaths were in an Over- Engineered Home; built beyond the existing Codes Requirements, but lacking Residential Sprinklers, due to Rural Water in the area. I know Poor Excuse, but it was not required at the time, nor is it now. The same Home has been re-constructed, board for board, in the same location once again, lacking those Residential Sprinklers still. The Fire Department, has new vision for these structures. Too bad, a loss of lives and the near misses, had to make those changes in vision.
In a nutshell I have come to the conclusion, that they can build these Houses to the existing Codes, and we just have to respond, because it "Exists in The Neighborhood". I know we can "Bandstand and Stomp Our Feet", saying "We Do not like these Structures", but as we see, we continue to Loss lives or have Closecalls and Near Misses, responding to these Structures.
I enjoy everyones responses to this Discussion, and maybe we can come to a "Meeting of the Minds", for this "New OLD Existing Structure".
Please read what is here, and hopefully we do not need to post more LODD's. The Views, Methods, Inquiries, and Responses to this Discussion, hopefully will share and shape some continuence for safety.
Thanks again for your Views and Thoughts, and Continued Vigilance for Safety;
JOHN
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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It's not unusual to have a house built in the 60's to be extensively renovated with new lightweight materials and technologies incorporated. Those sleepers are the ones that will bite you in the ass because you may be thinking legacy when it's now (mostly) low mass.
A quart can only hold a quart, and when it does it's doing the best it can. Pretty much the same with us. The resources we have available are the resources we have to work with. If the job has gotten bigger then we can only do what we can with what we have.
A fire in an 1800sqft house will get 3 engines, ladder, rescue and a couple of chiefs. Manpower will be maybe 15 firefighters. But that means that the roof can be accessed (if needed), ventilation begun, a quick primary search (if required) with the line advanced to the fire. All things being equal it will be a quick knock, minimal heat/fire damage and smoke throughout.
A fire in a 6000sqft house will get the first 3 engines, ladder, rescue and a couple of chiefs, a 4th wagon coming in and MA from the nearest 2 surrounding departments (probably 2 more engines and another ladder for another 10 people). Regardless we're going to have essentially the same resources for this fire as for the smaller house for the first 10 minutes.
Our attack lines are 2 inch, so in my mind the best course of action is to ditch the adjustable nozzle, go in solid bore (lower pressure, more maneuverable and greater gpms) cover the teams doing a quick look and grab and then out. If it can't be knocked down in that time then I'm looking to back out, regroup, set up for a deluge, break out the lawn chairs and start taking lunch orders. It is what it is.
So on a 6000sqft house we get ~60% more manpower, 50% more apparatus, all working on a house that is 300% bigger. I know marines like those odds but I prefer a much fairer fight.
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Well We're back again~~~ 10,000 sq ft House in Calvert County, Maryland. 6 FF's hospitalized. I again feel sorry for the FD. Under Gunned on a Single Lane Driveway; a Million Feet off the "Beaten Track".
Again, I will never backseat this one..I feel sorry for the FD's that responded..
JOHN
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