Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by FETC on February 25, 2011 at 3:06pm

John, seeing you started this thread listing the untimely death of a LAFD Captain related to a ceiling collapse, I have to ask what does that have to do with square footage and the 1.75" hoseline?

http://www.firefighternation.com/forum/topics/021711-lafd-roof-coll...

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Permalink Reply by John M. Scheibel on February 25, 2011 at 3:22pm

Hi FETC;

I guess my aim here is "How Should We Attack These Structure Fires" ? Let me ask you...Do you consider this size Home, a Commercial Structure Fire or a Normal House Fire ? Do you up your response level to one of Commercial Size, including RIT responsiblities, Truck Co Operations, Hose Size of the Initial Attack line with Increased Nozzle flow requirements ? Do you carry LW Blitz attack type master stream devices, to overcome shortfalls for lack of manpower ? Do you change your methods of Attack, with the need to increase FF's onscene before you start Interior operations, if it is feasible, once these FF showup ?

Having Instructed for 20 + years, we used to use a Formula called "Fire Risk Analysis", to determine FF needs on the fireground..This is where I am coming from..

This is not the "Little House on the Prarie" of the 1950's, but really, these homes approach a Garden Apartment Size Structure, with a Single Family living in it..It's not the proverbial House fire of yester year, with the reduced BTU fire loads of the 50's and 60's, and now we have added Lightweight construction to the equation... Sprinklers and Supression systems are not required in some locations for Single Family homes like this, as are Commercial Structures the same size...

Thanks for your reply...I knew I would get something started here...

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Permalink Reply by Marc C on February 25, 2011 at 4:42pm

Any fire scene needs appropriate size-up to determine your tactics, staffing, etc. Every fire scene is dynamic in nature and no one tactic may be appropriate the entire incident. Simply stated, you will have to make that determination for tactics/strategies at each incident.
In the case of these larger homes staffing levels, initial attack lines, RIT, etc. may have to ratcheted up to deal with the incident. But if it comes down to losing the structure over the safety of the firefighters, I gues we can always save the foundation.

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Permalink Reply by Mike Schlags (Captain Busy) Retd on February 25, 2011 at 4:54pm

I think I have a simple answer in regard to tactics and building code revisions...

1. This is not a typical residence but instead, a mega-mansion.
2. Responses to these structures require pre-planning, coordinated attack and a lot of manpower and equipment to handle a fire.
3. The interior attic space for these large square footage homes needs to incorporate the same designs used on commercial structures / parapet roofs which specifically includes scuppers to prevent too much water from collecting.

That's the key point here: SCUPPERS

You can even find scuppers in stairwells, so you know there is already code language that discusses other applications for scuppers.

So why can't we have scuppers in the attic space for these mega-mansions? Sure seems like a simple fix to the problem, and will prevent this type of structural collapse from ever happening, hopefully.

CBz

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Permalink Reply by John M. Scheibel on February 25, 2011 at 6:01pm

Thank you both for your Replies...I guess we are in agreement that Mega Mansions, as Mike calls them, does need for an "extraordinary plan"versus the classic "normal" Housefire response. I agree that "Saving the Foundation" is an appropriate answer, and I do not question this response at all.

In closing, I wonder really if this "Upping the Box" is a Norm for everyone, and I certainly do not question that at all.. As I said when I started this discussion; these places exist, and there is a need to really look at this problem in earnest. As more information comes out from this Los Angeles Fire, shoddy constructionhas come to light, and one of our Saving Graces; residential sprinklers with plastic piping, have now been listed as a problem in this Fire.

I will never "Backseat Quarterback" this Fire, putting blame on anyone..this Fire was a loser, and the shear size of this building, brought out my inquiry..

Anyone else have an Opinion, Tactic or View on this subject ? This is what this Forum is for, and I will never "Throw Dirt On Anyone..Speak Up..!! The only stupid question or answer is the one you don't ask or say..

Thanks again;

JOHN

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Permalink Reply by Mike Schlags (Captain Busy) Retd on February 25, 2011 at 6:05pm

or... make them sprinkler the building, have alarm requirements and make sure that it is installed per the UBC, UPC, and UFC but not using a R occupancy rating but a new rating that identifies the structure as a mega-mansion. additionally, things like access roads, water supply and automated systems need to be addressed. this structure is no different than a commercial one and should be treated the same. anything over as certain square footage is not building what the common man would consider a home for a family. it's more like a hotel... again, a commercial structure.

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Permalink Reply by John M. Scheibel on February 25, 2011 at 7:39pm

Thank you guys for your activity and passion in this discussion. I see it is picking up pace here.

Thank you again:

JOHN

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Permalink Reply by Dave Williams on February 26, 2011 at 1:10am

We have had a few of these mega-mansion fires already, the challenges and tactics to be used are certainly not what you would have in a 1800 sq ft dwelling. Since single family dwellings of over 6000 sq ft exist in every box area in our district we supplemented the first alarm assignment throughout the district to include 4 engines, 2 tankers (tenders) in non-hydrant areas, a truck, and a specialty drafting piece. We have 10K gallons of water coming, 25 personnel, etc. Other than the construction challenges (lightweight const., open floor plans, large area truss voids, etc.) our biggest problem is that our neighborhoods do not allow for efficient water shuttle operations. Too many one way in, one way out dead end communities with no water sources in the community. Tactics are different, as others stated entry and aggressive interior attack is not the norm on these homes. Collapse occurs early, in our experience within 15 minutes of the discovery of the fire. For a look at the rapid spread and early collapse check a you tube video- "Fallston Fire 1/27/11". The "cameraman" was shooting video prior to our response, at about 3 min 30 sec you can hear first arriving units coming into the neighborhood. Snow covered roads, 500 ft driveway. Quint and tanker staffed at time of alert, three minute travel time to scene. Ladder pipe knocked most of the initial fire, but collapses had already occurred. Lots of water needed to extinguish deep seated fire. Residential sprinklers have been approved here, but are not required until Jan of 2012. Expect that to help with new construction, but there are a lot of these existing in our area. Learn from others before you have to deal with one of these, your members' safety depend on it.

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Permalink Reply by MIke Waring on February 26, 2011 at 1:15am

theres a few of these in my district... the biggest issue is not just the size of the structures, but also the lightweight construction of these monster homes. Unfortunately, the "reliable source" argument is inadequate. What if the family wasn't down the street, but inside the structure? Or no cars are in the driveway, but the teenage son just got home from school and is taking a nap upstairs? Interior ops are a must IMO (depending on fire conditions of course) unless it is confirmed the house is evacuated and/or conditions deteriorate. I do agree though that there really shouldn't be an aggressive interior attack if no one is home (especially in this type of dwelling). risk a little save a little... Nothing irks me more than hearing that a FF was injured or killed when it was confirmed that no occupants were inside. Unfortunately, saying "no one said anyone was inside" is not a good excuse when a civilian dies.

That said, lets address the tactical problem. Where I am, The initial residential structure response of 3 Engines, 1 ladder, and the RIT is probably if not definitely not enough. In my opinion it's probably best to spend as little time inside as possible, so call resources EARLY if you know its this type of home (put it in your CAD) to get your tasks done as quickly as possible. Search teams should use search lines like in a commercial structure. some of the communal/family spaces are ginormous, firefighters can easily get lost. Consider 2 RIT teams depending on the availability of another RIT and the size of the mansion.

Just some thoughts, not the most well thought out ideas as its 1am where i am, and i need to go to bed.

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Permalink Reply by Bradley Webb on February 26, 2011 at 9:38am

We also have many of these McMansions. We've fought many fires in these residences and it's impossible to determine how the fire will react in these structures. I will recall to specific incidents. Last year at about 10am we were dispatched for a Structure fire because the residents said they heard a loud explosion in the attic and when they went outside, flames were blowing 40ft out the roof. I was not on duty at the time and responded from home to the firehouse and grabbed a secondary apparatus. Upon arrival which was about 8 or 9 minutes after the initial alarm had went out the main part of the house had already collapsed and the only thing left was the garage and the guest room above it, and the front door which was kinda eerie. So less than 10 mins and the whole house is on the ground. And btw an interesting sidenote is the fact that when the house collapsed, it fell straight down to the basement and all of the fire in the basement vented itself through the openings in the foundation. Basically turned the basement into a furnace.

But on the other hand we had a fire where the fire started in a lower basement area and extended into the space between the floor of the first floor and the ceiling of the basement, and it stayed there. It burned there for 10 mins before the homeowners smelled the smoke and called 911. When we arrived, we stretched a 1 3/4 into the basement (around the back of the house and through the back door), and once we pulled the ceilings the fire opened up on us. We put it out, but the fire put up one hell of a fight. That 1 3/4 was just barely able to put it out. So in this case 10 mins had elapsed and another 5 for response, so 15 mins and the house didn't collapse.

Impossible to predict. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't prepare for them. Another problem with these houses (at least in my area). They have so many bedrooms that when the residents get tired of one bedroom they will move their stuff across the house and sleep in the other bedroom so you have to check every single room, cause you never know where anyone will be. Also these houses have the smallest driveways, and they usually have decorative mailboxes that cost $2000 and are made of brick and you can't get a mini cooper down these driveways, much less a massive custom cab engine.

Now, we classify them as commercial structures. After the incident with the fire between floors, these houses get a 2 1/2, all the time. If it's just a small smell of smoke or something minor (when they tell you it's just a small fire, not a full blown two rooms going fire), the first team (we don't work as Engine Co. and Truck Co. teams cause we don't have a Truck and noone believes in the power of a Truck Co. {not that I haven't tried to convince them}) goes in with a water can and assorted tools depending on the house, and once they find the fire the second team brings in a 1 3/4 or a 2 1/2 depending on how the first team reports back. If they have trouble finding the fire a 2 1/2 gets laid to the front door with a wye and two 1 3/4 brought off of that. The High-rise pack is also brought up which brings and extra 200ft to bear, if needed. This is just off the first engine as well. Second due engine catches the nearest Hydrant and hooks up to the first in Engine and then works off that. That's just how we work right now. It will most likely change upon the next fire. Still tweaking on how to work with these houses.

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Permalink Reply by John M. Scheibel on February 26, 2011 at 11:05am

Thanks People;

This was the Hardy Wholesome discussion I was hoping for...Though I have never personally been in a Mega Mansion Fire, I also know they exist in my Community/Response Area.

I had a Student of mine, who moved on to be a Career FF in Virginia, who experienced a "Closecall" while being trapped with his crew in Loudoun County, Virginia. The Fire is depicted via Civilian video of the FD showing up, and beginning operations. The fire was well involved, and progressed rapidly. As I said, no Dirt throwing, but for sure the Fire became a "Loser" rapidly. Many pieces were dispatched and enroute, but things just fell apart rapidly.

Please continue to share your thoughts and watch this discussion. I love the sharing of Views, Opinions, and Thoughts.. These are valuable to me and the others.

Thanks again and Be Safe;
JOHN

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Permalink Reply by Thadias King on February 26, 2011 at 1:05pm

Hi John,

In light of the tragic events in Los Angles this last week your question is a very good one, one that will cause many of us to re-think our approach to the mega-house fire. I think the answer, if there truly is one, is to better define the problem. As you mentioned, do we see this as a commercial, an apartment style fire, or?

As with any title we put to things, the title can drive a certain thought process. I believe we would agree when hearing a dispatch to a commercial or other type fire, the definition of the structure we are responding to makes your brain flip the pages to that part of your mental playbook in preparation and also drives a preset loading of responding resources for the given incident.

When you hear, "fire in the home" or other type of single family dwelling designation, are you prepared and are the appropriate number and types of resources coming when the home turns out to be a 20,000 square foot multilevel mega-home?

In my department (Santa Barbara County, CA), a single family home would ring out three engines, a truck, and a BC. If the dispatch were for a commercial that could be a quarter of the size came out we would respond almost double then what we would for some thing called a "family dwelling". An interesting conundrum to say the least.

This type of Recognition Primed Decision (RPD) making process is just recently been in the thoughts of many professionals in regards to training and preparation for emergency incidents. The RPD model is a fascinating field of study, that when fully understood, could be the next major innovation in safety and response for emergency personnel. But without getting in to deep in this discussion about RPD, let me just say that perhaps the first step would be to give these mega-house fires there own definition. Truly they are a different animal and do in many cases require a unique approach then our other defined fire models. For instance, in my area we have many homes that exceed 10,000 square feet, with multiple stories, unique interior finishes, coverings, layouts, and other unforeseen hazards like the kind that just took the life and injured several of our brothers.

But unlike our commercial, apartment, and other building configurations were acquainted with, the mega-house has no basic standard and can vary wildly from one owner to another. Compound this with the potentially limited, if any, access to pre-plan and now you really have a major unknown. And unknowns can be deadly.

John, I think your really on to something and its going to take the collective brain trust of all of us to find a ways and means to better define the problem, redefine dispatch protocols to meet the resource needs, and enact new thought processes and applicable training to meet this challenge. For all of our brothers and sisters.

I look forward to hearing from you.

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