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Fire Fighter I and II GODS
Last year we provided the fire fighter I and II course for our fire fighter to assist them in their education. We found that as soon as the fire fighter passed they got the GOD actions. They got paid job and didn't look back. As the training officers I feel they used the district for the courses our department paid for, and paid them to attend. All but two fire fighters out of the 8 personnell have moved on. It is not that they bettered them self, I is the way it was done. I want to remind all to member were you started. there is things I am prood to say, is we train more then any dedartment in two counties, and when we show up on scene we are asked to help with IC or opion on the issues at hand, by the other Volunteer departments but the paid department act stand offish to us, as they do to all the voluteer departments. What is the differance between Voluteer and paid department? It is what they do between calls. We have paid jobs, and train often, we do not drop the course if we get a call, we start where we left off at in the next training meeting. We used to training about three days a week, and reg. meeting are every two weeks. We have had a decress in attendance at training and meetings.
During the summer we do a lot of public events, so we do less training in summer. Other then summer we train three day a week.
Q. What do we do to keep the Fire Fighter I and II trained personnel and work with the GOD actions?
Q. How do we work better with the paid department GODs?
During the summer we do a lot of public events, so we do less training in summer. Other then summer we train three day a week.
Q. What do we do to keep the Fire Fighter I and II trained personnel and work with the GOD actions?
Q. How do we work better with the paid department GODs?
Replies are closed for this discussion.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Station10Capt106 on
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There will be high turn over in a volunteer department. That is just a fact. You will have some dedicated diehards but you will also have an assortment of people who either:
1) try it out and decide that it is not right for them
2) try it, like it, but "life" gets in the way and they have to move on for one reason or another
3) Use it as a stepping stone in their career path
I expect that for every 5-6 new members we get on only 1 or 2 will still be with us in a year or two, especially the younger members who are not tied down as much geographically to an area. Those that you have trained and stayed will become valuable assets on your department. Those you have trained that moved on to other departments (paid or vol) will hopefully become valuable assets on their new department. Remember, your department could just as well be on the receiving end of another departments training. Someone new moves into the area and wants to get on your department that has just completed their FFI/II training somewhere else.
It all comes around full circle sooner or later. Train everyone to the best of your ability and make sure they are competent firefighters. They will either serve your community or another community, but the key is to make sure they are trained to serve.
Best of luck to you,
John -
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Permalink Reply by rfdjumper on
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In my career class of 10, 9 had a volunteer background, 1 was retired from another paid department, 8 were trained to National Fire II. Of the 10, I believe only 2 are still active volunteer firefighters. Why? Since you asked the question I'll enlighten you. Could it be that they are sick of the Vollietics (Volunteer Politics). Could it be they are now Union figherfighter and they are NOT allowed to volunteer anymore (though some still do). Could it be that they have family or other obligations which prevent them from keeping the dedication to your department.
Q1- Recruit, and Recruit more, attrition is not a new concept in the volunteer ranks, it is commonplace. If your department wants to keep a tight reign then don't pay for training till after a year, or some predetermined time.
Q2 - Lose the chip on your shoulder about career departments. When the boss tells you to do something then do it. Paid guys don't want to sit around at a room and contents for 5 hours because all the jobs aren't done or can't be done. So if you are asked to go to the roof and cut a hole, I'm afraid of heights is the wrong answer, the correct answer is consider it done.
Just remember 1 thing. Every department (Paid and Volunteer) THINKS they are the best in their area. You don't hear a fire department say "We suck" and "We can't put out fire". It's alright to believe that your department is the best, just know that it most likely isn't true.
Good luck in your recruitment adventures
and congrats to the brothers that got hired in career departments -
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Permalink Reply by R. Ann Balmer on
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Thank you.
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I have a lot of repect for paid fire fighter because I was one for 18 years but as a paid fire fighter at the time the staff at the two paid departments I was on, made fun of voluteers. Never got the reason for it. I feel we all can learn from each other instead of making jokes. Our department states that we can not make rude jokes toward another department. Yes was wrong in what I typed. Sorry venting abit! Yes we all work very are! We don't have unions here in my area but we should have.
My point is and I was not clear on, was how can we work togather better, I am now a volunteer.
Great Idea on delaided pay. We are a small department and have came a long way and what to advance I will say that we have a lot to learn. -
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Yes I miss them and wish they didn't leave. One of the ff I & II 5 years was best of freinds until he stated with this paid departmentleft due to needed employment, and we found out that there is some bad things being said about our department, there not about one member but as a hole department. The fire fighter told us this him self, and one of them quit this paid department because he was tied of the statement being said and called this morning said he was sorry for bad mouthing us and wanted to rejoin our department. I don't understand why it bugs me so, this one department talks bad of everyone. It's just the department.
I worked as a paid fire fighter for 18 years on two and the two fire departments made fun of volunteer departments. never could see the reason for it. And now as a Volunteer, still don't see the reason.
The other ff I & II are new to the fire service, since the course has steped on the cheif aqnd my self feet by doing there own thing on scene, with out looking at the full picture and caused problem.
When I take them a side I have gotten the statement that I know what I am doing. I have to explain that their are so many differant tatics that can be use, that each sene is diferant and you have to look at the whole picture the Operation officer will direct you on what to do. They did not like the fact so they left. So this is what I was refuring to by GOD action. Sorry I didn't tell the whole story.
The two that stayed on with us are doing great and are now taking office course to get ready for promotions.
We have a regular turn over about every three years because most of our personnel are milary families. -
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Yes I miss them and wish they didn't leave. One of the ff I & II 5 years was best of freinds until he stated with this paid departmentleft due to needed employment, and we found out that there is some bad things being said about our department, there not about one member but as a hole department. The fire fighter told us this him self, and one of them quit this paid department because he was tied of the statement being said and called this morning said he was sorry for bad mouthing us and wanted to rejoin our department. I don't understand why it bugs me so, this one department talks bad of everyone. It's just the department.
I worked as a paid fire fighter for 18 years on two and the two fire departments made fun of volunteer departments. never could see the reason for it. And now as a Volunteer, still don't see the reason.
The other ff I & II are new to the fire service, since the course has steped on the cheif aqnd my self feet by doing there own thing on scene, with out looking at the full picture and caused problem.
When I take them a side I have gotten the statement that I know what I am doing. I have to explain that their are so many differant tatics that can be use, that each sene is diferant and you have to look at the whole picture the Operation officer will direct you on what to do. They did not like the fact so they left. So this is what I was refuring to by GOD action. Sorry I didn't tell the whole story.
The two that stayed on with us are doing great and are now taking office course to get ready for promotions.
We have a regular turn over about every three years because most of our personnel are milary families. -
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Yes I miss them and wish they didn't leave. One of the ff I & II 5 years was best of freinds until he stated with this paid departmentleft due to needed employment, and we found out that there is some bad things being said about our department, there not about one member but as a hole department. The fire fighter told us this him self, and one of them quit this paid department because he was tied of the statement being said and called this morning said he was sorry for bad mouthing us and wanted to rejoin our department. I don't understand why it bugs me so, this one department talks bad of everyone. It's just the department.
I worked as a paid fire fighter for 18 years on two and the two fire departments made fun of volunteer departments. never could see the reason for it. And now as a Volunteer, still don't see the reason.
The other ff I & II are new to the fire service, since the course has steped on the cheif aqnd my self feet by doing there own thing on scene, with out looking at the full picture and caused problem.
When I take them a side I have gotten the statement that I know what I am doing. I have to explain that their are so many differant tatics that can be use, that each sene is diferant and you have to look at the whole picture the Operation officer will direct you on what to do. They did not like the fact so they left. So this is what I was refuring to by GOD action. Sorry I didn't tell the whole story.
The two that stayed on with us are doing great and are now taking office course to get ready for promotions.
We have a regular turn over about every three years because most of our personnel are milary families.
Sorry I was venting and did say what i realy needed to say for ya all to understand the issue -
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Permalink Reply by FETC on
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OK this is what we call transient firefighters. The ones who are go getters, and motivated to learn are more than likely to train and test for paid jobs. So you will never stop that from happening unless you decide to never train them to a certification level.
Maybe institute a certain time frame that they must remain an active member for the reimbursement of the classes. This is not unheard of in paid departments. If a firefighter takes a paramedic class and it is 100% paid for it costs upwards of 20K per guy. We have a three year agreement or they must pay for the cost of the class and the materials if the contract is broken. You can't legally retract pay for hours in which they actually worked taking the class.
Furthermore, I am more interested in your second question, and that may be related to your original problem and that is if you are having problems retaining firefighters after achieving certification, then possibly it could be a problem within your organization. Meaning, how you treat them, train them and are they now working for less trained officers? If they never use their skills, they can become bored as well. So they search for more avenues to experience the fire service.
But I would like to know why you seem to have a problem with PAID FIRE DEPARTMENT GODS? What the heck kind of terminology is that. Seems right up front that you are jealous or have a position of distaste. Maybe if they are a neighboring fire department, they are tired of working with non-certified firefighters during mutual aid operations.... and that at times can come accross stern and interpreted as GOD LIKE mentality.
Training certification alone is NOT COMPARABLE. Sorry, but I have said it before in about 10 other threads that firefighter 1/2 training in a volunteer and paid are yes, the same on paper, but the training from an everyday standpoint of a paid guy adds up to thousands of hours of more education, experience and exposure to your equipment, policies, procedures, building familiarization, fire alarm systems and testing, and responding on every call in which your are toned to for live hands on experience.
I understand your operations officer comment, but I have volunteer fire chiefs around us that their fire certifications do not meet the qualifications of my probie.
Sorry while the volunteer is learning his/her trade, profession, or career choice of his own, he is missing out on the same amount of time learning the little things about the fire service that add up to a highly trained and efficient jake. -
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Permalink Reply by Truckie Jay on
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If 10% of the volunteers you put through a FF 1/2 course stay with your dept for 3+ yrs AND stay active that whole time, then your dept is in the norm. Higher than 10%? then count your lucky stars! The fact is volunteer dept's have a huge turnover. They always have and always will.
1. Paid position
2. Moved for a better job outside the district/department area
3. Family Obligations
4. Personal Feelings
5. Wasn't what they 'thought' it would be like
Are just a few of the examples why you would lose a member after putting money into their training. So do you stop training your people? Do you require a set amount of time as a member before you give them the training? Do you require X amount of time served after the training? In the long run these options will do nothing more than hurt your recruiting and retention program.
Fact is we have to train these people asap after they join the department to ensure their safety, yours, the public and enable them to be productive on an incident scene. So dangling FF 1/2 in front of them like a carrot isn't the option. Well then what is the option? There are a number of them out there. But personally it all comes down to only 2 choices.
1. Charge them a minimum fee which you will return after X amount of service to the dept and the community.
2. Face the fact that people will take your training and possibly leave. However, those people are still trained firefighters! And you and your department accomplished that task. Those people are working for ABC Department or XYZ Fire District today because of the dedication and devotion your department and yourself put into their training. And that is what I would be saying. Not 'I can't believe Firefighter X took our 1 & 2 course then went to work over there!" But rather "There are 6 new firefighters working for XYZ dept now because of the training we delivered to them."
And for those people that take the training and stay.. It is still the cheapest way for them and you to obtain trained personnel. Think about it how much money per student are you out? Cost of Instructor, books, paper, propane for the props. Books are reusable and paper and propane broken down per student doesn't amount to THAT much. Compare that to the amount of money a paid department spends per year for training. Cost of the course, lodging, books, travel, per diem, overtime. All of these are possible and even feasible things a paid department deals with. Fact is unless you pay your volunteers an hourly rate to take training you've ahead of the curve from the get go compared to us paid departments.
And as for paid XYZ department bad mouthing your department. So what, I guarantee they have their fair share of foundation saves just like the rest of us. We all put our 'turnout pants' on the same way. If they think different let them, what goes around comes around right? -
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Permalink Reply by Paul Everson on
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It is common for staff to take the training and run. There is no way around it without a contract stating they will stay for x number of years or pay the department back.
As far as the "GODs" comments, I agree with damnthing. Also, those that have left may realize the grass isn't always green on the other side. -
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Permalink Reply by Eric Hamlett on
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Hi all I am a vol fireman and EMT. I work a round paid brothers and sisters ever day.Some day I may be payed . Every one here has made a good point. I would just like to say paid or vol we are still brother and sister. We all love what we are doing are we would not be doing it. Some may go and some will stay That is life. Bottom line we all need to respet our brothers and sisters. God bless every one please STAY SAFE.
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Thank you all! All are great points and helped me not feel so bad. We realy have been luck to keep some for five year and others for seven years, but we do have a turn over about every three years, as it seems to be the norm.
Still not going to give up on bettering the relationship with the department we have so much truble out of. I pray everyday that things will get better, and it has. I just need to give it more time it sounds like. Thank guys -
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