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FDNY Ordered to Develop New Entry-Level Firefighter Test
NEW YORK - The city must revamp fire department hiring practices that discriminated against black applicants and possibly pay damages to thousands of victims, a judge ruled Thursday.
What This Means
According to the NY Post, under the order handed down yesterday, Judge Nicholas Garaufis said he wants the city to hire two black and one Hispanic candidate for every five applicants who pass the test until there are 293 minorities added to the ranks of the FDNY. Read the NY Post Story.
In a written decision in federal court in Brooklyn, U.S. District Judge Nicholas Garaufis ordered the city to "develop a new testing procedure for the position of entry-level firefighter." He also said that about 7,400 minority applicants who were victimized by discriminatory exams were eligible to file claims against the city.
The order follows a decision by the judge earlier this month that found the fire department had intentionally discriminated against blacks. [FDNY] has about 350 black firefighters out of 11,500 total.
City officials have claimed there's no evidence the department meant to keep out blacks. In a statement Thursday, city Law Department lawyer Georgia Pestana said the order was legally flawed.
"An initial examination suggests that today's opinion does not fully address the complex constitutional issues presented, nor does it give proper weight to developments in this area of law," he said.
Related
- Heat turned up on FDNY to pay for bias
- Judge Orders New York to Correct Bias
- Judge mandates minority makeup
- FDNY Ordered to Scrap hiring Exam
- Remedies Ordered in FDNY Race Case
Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Firefighter Nation WebChief on
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What This Means
According to the NY Post, under the order handed down yesterday, Judge Nicholas Garaufis said he wants the city to hire two black and one Hispanic candidate for every five applicants who pass the test until there are 293 minorities added to the ranks of the FDNY. Read the NY Post Story.
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Permalink Reply by Wilsy on
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Now is this not descrimation against white people. This type of stuff needs to end. Whoever is the best for the job should be hired. It shouldn't matter if you are white, black, green or red. Whoever can do the job the best should be hired and it shouldn't come down to what colour or race you are. It should be simple, pass the test top 20 % get asked for physicals, pass the physicals top 15% get asked for interviews and then hire however many candidates you can that have passed both exams and demonstrated well in the interviews.
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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One has to ask, how is it that there are only 350 black ff's out of a total of 11,500?
I think most people agree that the best candidates should get the job, but what determines best candidacy?
I have never tested for FDNY so I don't know what specifically is required but if it's like any other civil service test, I would be less likely to blame FDNY and more likely to blame the NYC School System. If a person, of any color, can not do well on a c/s exam it is (IMO) an indication of a lack of education or ability, both of which should have been addressed throughout that individual's academic 'career'. Maybe it's just easier to blame a monolithic organization like the FDNY rather than the ephemeral NYC/State school system.
So are black candidates failing the written test (as opposed to physicals, backgrounds and CPAT)? All I can find in a quick search is that they are not getting hired. Interestingly if a significant number of people from a specific group fail a test, the test may be considered discriminatory.
"The EEOC, after a two-year investigation, concluded that the written test discriminates against African Americans as a class because there is no relationship between the skills the test measures and the skills it takes to be a good firefighter." http://www.indypressny.org/nycma/voices/201/briefs/briefs/
It begs the question; why does the written test work so well for whites but NOT blacks? What exactly is it testing for? And why do whites have it but not blacks (or, apparently, hispanics)?
What's happening, or will happen, has less to do with whites than it does with blacks because what the decision is saying is that blacks are not as smart as whites, are unable to take and pass the same tests so the test will be dumbed down to such a point that blacks will be hired in the correct ratio (about 25% of NYC is black). Wow, so much for racial equality, your government thinks you're stupid.
http://lashawnbarber.com/archives/2007/05/24/doj-sues-fdny/
http://lashawnbarber.com/archives/2004/06/29/brfirehouse-diversity/
So what it boils down to is this: If a person can't take and pass a generalized, written test due to his/her lack of education, rather than working towards improving the educational system, instead devise a testing means which this person CAN pass (pictures, symbols, sounds, story telling?). In essence, treating the symptom (failing written tests) rather than the illness (functionally illiterate, poorly/under educated) or the cause (failing school system).
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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Well stated Jack and echos my thoughts as well. It is a shame when even the justice system can't see that and instead only sees colors.
I would be less likely to blame FDNY and more likely to blame the NYC School System. If a person, of any color, can not do well on a c/s exam it is (IMO) an indication of a lack of education or ability, both of which should have been addressed throughout that individual's academic 'career'.
I did test for FDNY and had to test in a high school in near midtown. Looking around the walls with student papers etc, it appeared more to me the education level of grade to middle school, not a high school. Now I'm not saying my education was super, nor saying the NYC schools are substandard, but there definately seemed to be a difference Even if there is a disparity, it still is no reason to basically make the statement, as you mention, that makes the assumption minorities are not as intelligent. I also personally felt the FDNY written test was the easiest test I have ever taken, and it's not like I'm some MENSA standout.
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Permalink Reply by Dave Lucia on
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This is very sad to me; my stomach turns every time I read this. This happen to me in the late 70's. Before choosing my second love has a career (Engineering). I was hoping to be a Professional firefighter, but lost out too many times to mandates that required a town to hire 2 of this race, 1 from that race and we need more ladies too. If you meet all the requirements, pass all the tests, interviews and physicals. Why not hire the best person no matter race, sex or politics. Isn’t that what’s best for the public. Knowing when that big red truck arrives, they’re getting the best product there taxes can pay for. Maybe that’s why I challenge my volunteers to be the best they can be. Because race, sex and politics doesn’t determine if you can do the job.
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Permalink Reply by Steve on
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This is simply reverse discrimination. The appropriate thing to do would have been to have the FDNY propose a plan for a unbiased testing process. But no a judge gets involved that is as lazy as they come and his solution is to say " Here, Now 3 out of 5 people you hire MUST be minorities". What if there aren't enough minority applicants that make it through? Is a non-minority going to lose a chance to get hired because the minority to non-minority ratio becomes imbalanced. This is ridiculous. I'm sorry but you should not get a free pass over anyone due to race/ethnicity. The bottom line is you need to hire the top "X" amount of people and those that did not prepare or score well are out, regardless of their race or ethnicity.
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Permalink Reply by Perry Bryant on
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I like what you said about the school system. This is the crap that I hate.
I do not care. I am not a racist. The best trained, capable, qualified, and competent are the ones who should be hired.
What thus means is that regardless of their competency, ex. bottom 25%, they must be hired. This is placing public safety at risk. Plain and simple. I would right more but thsi makes me mad.
That is like saying a certain number of politicians should be black, hispanic, and white.
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Permalink Reply by Mike Frazer on
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What happened to New Haven 20 ruling, give the test and take the top candidates ...end of story. It's not about race its public safety. It's like taking a ff exam and getting a 70% what 30 % are you willing to concede when your life, your brothers and the publics lives are in jeopardy.
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Permalink Reply by Mike Schlags (Captain Busy) Retd on
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My personal opinion is that getting on the fire department and promoting should be all about the person knowing and understanding the job, not their race. What should be interesting is that this order is going to back fire on those benefiting from this decision... Why? White firefighters will become the minority in the not to distant future. What happens when the roles of who is the minority reverses in the next 40 years? And for areas not currently affected by racial quotas and concerns for your local areas, be prepared for changes.
USA Today reported about a Census report that was published that indicate that the "white flight" of the early 1990s is not so white anymore. Hispanic, black and Asian immigrants are leaving states that are traditional immigrant gateways for the same reasons that others are leaving: affordability, quality of life and jobs. "More Hispanics are leaving California than whites," says demographer William Frey, who linked "white flight" from California and New York in the early 1990s to the surge in immigrants in those states. "Now, it's a middle-class flight motivated by cost and congestion." What this means overall is that the influx of minority populations into areas that at one time were mostly white populations.
U.S. Census data from 2000 to 2009 analyzed by the New York Times, which attributes the shift, in part, to higher birth rates among immigrants. California was among the top-ten states that saw increases under-18 populations.
The emergence of a nonwhite majority among children is be no surprise to folks living in Los Angeles, who live in a city that is nearly 50 percent Latino. Latinos have now edged out whites as the largest ethnic group in the once Leave It To Beaver-like San Fernando Valley.
Meanwhile California joins Arizona, Hawaii, Maryland, Nevada, New Mexico and Texas as states where "minority" non-adults are now the majority. "The shift of families with children to the Sun Belt magnets is shaping more diverse populations for years to come," William H. Frey, a demographer at the Brookings Institution, told the Los Angeles Times.
Don't tell the producers of The Hills or any of the other youth-oriented television shows that seem to portray people of color as background noise in California, but for the Golden State's under-18 population whites are now a minority...
So, how does this factor into your fire department's demographics? What happens when it's folks of white racial backgrounds that make the call that they are being discriminated against? This should get interesting...
By 2050, 62 percent of the nation's children will be minorities, up from 44 percent today. Of those, 39 percent are projected to be Hispanic, up from 22 percent in 2008, and 38 percent are projected to be white, down from 56 percent in 2008.
The times are changing and any legal directives will have to work both ways. Times and demographics are changing. Just drive by a school yard and look at the hair color of the kids...
CBz
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Permalink Reply by John Rulli Jr. on
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Give me a F**KING break!I tested for six different departments between Maryland,Virgina, West Virgina, and Pennsylvaina with in the last year and have have yet to get hired anywhere! Do you hear me pulling the race card? NO! Equal oppertunity employment means EVERYONE takes the same test regardless race or sex with the SAME chance of getting hired! Let the best person win!!!!!!!
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Permalink Reply by FETC on
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I usually stay out of these threads but I will post today.
I want to know how do you make a new FDNY entry level test that is non discriminatory to minorities??? It's a base line knowledge test. Whether fire service related or a straight forward civil service test. It would seem the new test would then be easier for the non-minorities, who are already not struggling with the scores.
Oh wait, does that mean you will now check a box for your race, and that would mean you start the exam with a certain number of points for a head start? How will that stand up to the EOE laws???
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Uh oh... we had a problem...
Judge Sonia Sotomayor says she is a "perfect affirmative action baby," and that she was accepted to Princeton and Yale despite her lackluster test performance compared to other applicants.
She voted as a judge to back a decision by New Haven to throw out test results in which white firefighters were denied promotions because no minority applicants had scored high enough on the test.
The issue was whether city officials trying to diversify a civil service department were guilty of racial discrimination under the Equal Protection Clause or Title VII when they decide not to utilize written test results which favor one racial class over another, and whether an employer violates 42 U.S.C. § 2000E-2(1), which makes it illegal to adjust test scores or cut-off scores based on race, when he decides not to utilize test results because the successful candidates are all of one race.
New Haven FD seems to have ended up in a no-win situation-while its decision not to certify a list of eligible candidates allowed it to avoid a potential lawsuit with blacks, the same decision opened it up to a lawsuit from the white candidates who, but for New Haven's decision, could have been promoted.
Guess what? The firefighters claiming reverse discrimination won...
Horace Williams - Photographer
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The plaintiffs in the Ricci v. DeStefano case celebrate outside the federal courthouse on Church Street on Monday after the Supreme Court issued its ruling in their favor.
This issue regarding hiring may end up going to court... if that what it takes to make things fair as the pendulum swings the other way now...
CBz
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