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Exterior or Interior
We have had a lot of discussion around the station about when do you hit the fire from the exterior prior to going in and mopping up. I have always said if there is no chance of survival and the fire has control of the house then hit it from the outside first. Remember, Risk a lot to save a lot and risk little to save little.
Here is what I had the other day. When you finish reading the next paragraph, don't read the last one until you decide on your strategy. You might be surprised like I was.
The time was 0600 hrs, temperature 20 degrees, no wind. You are the officer on the engine company. You arrived with an Engine company, Rescue Company, Tower, and a medic unit. Staffing was 4 on the engine and rescue, 3 on tower, and 2 on the medic. Hydrant is 50 feet from the house. The structure is a 1 1/2 story, 1940s Cape Cod. Upon arrival you notice fire over the roof line from the rear. As your crew stretches the line, you make a lap of the structure. You encounter a male who is about 40 years old. He tells you that everyone is out of the house. The house has a dining room addition on the Charlie / David corner. The dining room and kitchen are fully involved and both rooms have self vented. The fire in the kitchen has extended out the window and entered the attic vent to the knee wall on the 2nd floor. Where are you going to begin your attack? List your tasks in order of priority. Remember don't look at the last paragraph until you make this list.
Here is what I thought about. There was a lot of fire in those two rooms. I was thinking about hitting the dining room from the outside and then go in and extinguish the kitchen from the interior. But, as I went back around to the front of the house, I noticed an elderly woman stumble out the front door. At this point I didn’t know if there were more occupants. We advanced the attack line thru the front door so the rescue company could search the rest of the house as we attacked the fire. The truck vented the knee wall. The second engine pulled a 2nd line to attack the fire at the attic vent and then entered as a backup line. It turns out the man who told me the house was empty is mentally challenged. Things are not as they always appear.
Here is what I had the other day. When you finish reading the next paragraph, don't read the last one until you decide on your strategy. You might be surprised like I was.
The time was 0600 hrs, temperature 20 degrees, no wind. You are the officer on the engine company. You arrived with an Engine company, Rescue Company, Tower, and a medic unit. Staffing was 4 on the engine and rescue, 3 on tower, and 2 on the medic. Hydrant is 50 feet from the house. The structure is a 1 1/2 story, 1940s Cape Cod. Upon arrival you notice fire over the roof line from the rear. As your crew stretches the line, you make a lap of the structure. You encounter a male who is about 40 years old. He tells you that everyone is out of the house. The house has a dining room addition on the Charlie / David corner. The dining room and kitchen are fully involved and both rooms have self vented. The fire in the kitchen has extended out the window and entered the attic vent to the knee wall on the 2nd floor. Where are you going to begin your attack? List your tasks in order of priority. Remember don't look at the last paragraph until you make this list.
Here is what I thought about. There was a lot of fire in those two rooms. I was thinking about hitting the dining room from the outside and then go in and extinguish the kitchen from the interior. But, as I went back around to the front of the house, I noticed an elderly woman stumble out the front door. At this point I didn’t know if there were more occupants. We advanced the attack line thru the front door so the rescue company could search the rest of the house as we attacked the fire. The truck vented the knee wall. The second engine pulled a 2nd line to attack the fire at the attic vent and then entered as a backup line. It turns out the man who told me the house was empty is mentally challenged. Things are not as they always appear.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Smoke Eater on
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That's a scary situation! If I were told everyone was out, I would have probably done the same as you. But when somone comes stumbling out, that changes everything. Then you about have to go into S&R mode and get to the fire as soon as possible.
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Permalink Reply by larry jenkins on
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The thing is the guy I talked to looked normal, so I assumed he was correct. The fire was being fed by a broken gas line in the kitchen. It was a little difficult to put out. We lucked out, we were 3rd on the box but the 1st engine made a wrong turn and the 2nd engine was doing a shift change and was delayed. We got there 1st.
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Wow! I have also came across people who are mentally challenged but appeared to be of sound mind and judgement, just not under those circumstances.
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Permalink Reply by Engineff on
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My thoughts are start offensive and when the safety of your personnel and the integrity of the structure become compromised go defensive. I don't know arrival order or time lapse between each arriving company, but I would have assigned fire attack to the engine company, since your rooms had self vented have the truck start a ppv fan at the door, secure utilities, and start throwing ladders. Assign R.I.T. to the rescue, and the medic unit could start rehab. Since the information you received about occupancy of the structure changed, the four man engine company could have divided and completed a search. my opinion on hitting fires from the outside is your going to push it through the unburned part of the house. Again I want to stress how important safety is, and there are those fires where you can get a quick hit on it from the outside, then go in, but your still pushing it in the wrong direction. I wasn't there, just my thoughts!!!
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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Actually Larry, if this was us, I would have been thinking offensive right away. If the fire was to the back and self venting, then I would want to push the fire from unburned to burned. The "transitional" attack as you describe can be used to knock down a bulk of fire and works good if you are still awaiting resources, but again, it is a judgement call on what you find when you first get there. There is a video on this site where such an attack is made, a large amount of fire is knocked down with a stinger so that offensive operations can take place.
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Assign R.I.T. to the rescue
Not to criticize the startegy here, but I don not agree with the use of RIT for a rescue of the civilian. RIT is there to be ready to respond for a FF down, not to be implemented in a fireground task such as a rescue.
However, if you are referring that a RIT member can assist the woman to the medics and ready to go, fine. I agree with RIT throwing ladders or doing utility control outside and such, but not utilized in the command strategy to mitigate the incident. RIT is there to be ready to respond to a FF down, not civilian down.
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Permalink Reply by Rusty Mancini on
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First question is, was that the only person left that stumbled out of the door, and second did you contain the fire to those rooms? If this was the case, it sounds like you did luck out!
Sounds to me you made the right choice, and if I was there and observed the same thing, I would of made the same tactical decisions! That lady changed the whole strategical plan at that point. Wow what an encounter and quick decision making on your part. You never know what you will encounter on any given call, and have to be able to readjust in a given moment! Great job!
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I never said to assign RIT to the rescue for civilians, but where I come from staffing levels are short and all companies tend to wear more than one hat. Just last week we were first in to a second due fire with the other two companies not out the bay yet and our staffing is three to our piece!
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were you on the enine or were you ahead either pov or admin. vehicle (captain or chief)? If you were in on the first-in that would change some things in my previous post, I was thinking you were seperate from the engine which would have given me one more person on the engine company.
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I am a captain and was on the 1st engine. I'm not sold on PPV prior to extinguishment. It works well in the lab but not on the street. Had the fire extended to other parts of the structure that was not noted on my 1st lap then if PPV was started then you could spead the fire to the unburned structure not the vent holes. If we would have done PPV then the fire in the kneewall would have extended to the entire atttic space. We did contain the fire to the two involved rooms and kept in contained in the kneewall.
We also don't split our crews, we have about 35 people on the 1st alarm. Our 4th engine is the RIT.
John Crabbe, I only thought of exterior attack, because alot of people think this is a good tactic, I don't.
I just try to listen to other opinions, but I'm not sold on it. However, if the building is a total loss I have no hesitation in starting an exterior attack. Two weeks ago we had a house at 0200 hrs with fire venting from every window and the crawl space under the house. There were no cars in the driveway. I kept everyone out. After one minute the 1st floor collapsed into the basement. We found out later the occupant had a fight with the homeowner and set the fire using 10 one gallon plastic jugs of gasoline all over the house. I go interior when needed, but also know when not to.
Stay safe
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PPV should be used in conjuction with extinquishment, start the fan a minute or two prior to entry of the attack team, push the smoke and heat off of them and they walk right back to the fire and put it out. By removing the smoke and heat the attack team moves quicker with better visibility. Used it, liked it, and recommend it!!
Also with 35 people on a first alarm I see why you don't split crews, we are lucky to get 35 people on a third alarm. First alarm brings 8 firefighters with 2 chiefs, and 1 fire marshall who functions as a safety officer.
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Just thought I would bring it up....stating assign RIT to the rescue is pretty vague, it could mean the rescue of a civilian, utilized in rescue ops, or be RIT. I believe in an active RIT and utilizing them on a fireground, as we do, but they are also (and should be) limited to what they can do. Any task assigned should be easily dropped in the event of a MAYDAY.
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