We had 2 extrication calls this past monday and this past wednesday on both of thse scenes the ems crews keep trying to act like extrications gods. the accident on wednesday we had another fd respond mutual aid with us and we pretty much had the pt out except just finishing up on the dash roll. well the paramedics start running around telling this other dept to go cut the roof of the truck off when there was absolutely no need to. this dept is a county dept and is full of unexperienced guys who just want to do something so they just do wat neone will tell them.. but we got control of the situation before things got out of hnd and people started cutting things they shouldnt of...but neway does neone else have this problem???

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OK I GUESS I WILL REPLY TO THIS FOR MAYBE SOME PEOPLE MISUNDERSTOOD. WE DONT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH 99% OF THE AMBULANCE COMPANY WE WORK WITH THEY ARE MORE THAN HAPPY TO LET US DO OUR JOBS AND THEM DO THEIRS. WERE THE EXTRICATION GOD THING COMES INTO PLAY IS WHEN U HAVE PARAMEDIC WHO WANTS TO CONTROL A SCENE AND A WANT TO DO A EXTRICATION MOVE THAT IS OBVIOUSLY UNNESSECARY SEEING THAT TWO OTHER PARAMEDICS THAT WERE WITH THE PATIENT AND EVEN SAID THAT. WE ARE A DEPT THAT RUNS FIRE AND EMS WE JUST DONT TRANSPORT TO THE HOSPITAL. SO WE DO HAVE EMS PERSONAL ON SCENE EVEN BEFORE THE AMBULANCE GETS ON SCENE SO WE TOTALLY RETARDED WHEN IT COMES TO THE PATIENTS NEEDS.
Haven't had this happen to us (yet), but a good way to avoid it reocurring is maybe inviting them to participate in some of your departments training sessions. If they're not trained for it, its an injury waiting to happen & the victim or rescue worker will pay the price. Possibly all they need is a guiding, helping hand.
Mike,

Haven't you seen the 2008 spelling "T-I-E-M"?
That was changed so that there is an "I" in "Team".

Also, you guys wear fire helmets to ocean rescues? Doesn't it make it hard to swim after the victim? :-)
Just kidding, of course, but I couldn't resist given the photo.
Of course, I've NEVER worn a fire helmet to a rescue on the beach...at least recently. :-)

Ben
EMS considered a "bystander" and a "tool for the FD to use"...my my, no matter your dual training or experience, this language stinks of unnecessary animosity toward EMS providers, and as one poster indicated, may cause you a degree of liability somewhere down the line. Thank God I don't have to deal with attitudes like that in the area I work in. If anyone did, they would get straightened out real quick. In most areas, fire does vehicle rescue, but in the city and a few suburbs, EMS has its own rescue division and is staffed by rescue trained Paramedics and Fire does none of it...in any case, none of those rescue paramedics consider the fire responders as a "tool" or a "bystander". In the areas where fire does the rescue, if medical providers need to make entry to a car, the EMS provider from the responding EMS goes in-not one of the firefighters with a certification. The EMS are the ones taking over the care of the patient and transporting once extricated- to have to do a "hand off" to a medic team "staying back at the ambulance" is unnecessary and hazardous.
I NEVER SAID FOR THE EMS TEAM TO STAY AT THE TRUCK ON THIS PARTICULAR CALL WE HAD ONE OF THEIR PARAMEDICS INSIDE STARTING AN IV. THEIR WAS JUST A MEDIC AND EMT BASIC THAT JUST WANTED TO BE IC I GUESS. BUT OTHER THAN THAT THE SCENE WENT FINE
okay so i have to throw my 2 cents in...in ems class we get told we are in charge of the patient. NOT the fire dept...not that im putting down a fd because im a firefighter over an emt anyday. We are also taught extrication skills that you guys are not taught...unless your trained emt or CFR...so techinacally they could tell you what to do...atleast in NYS
Has anybody heard of working together? If you think they(EMS) have issues with being in control maybe you should take a look in the mirror. Firefighters in general are the most egotistical power hungry people out there.
Being in control while working with other agencies will not work if you have the it's my way or the highway attitude.
At an extrication there should be someone from EMS preferably whoever is in charge standing side by side with the OIC. So that they may make decision together on the next move and nobody makes a move without an order from command. Keep in mind this will also not work if both officers from fire and ems are involved with the extrication rather than overseeing it.
Dustin- my reply was not aimed at your post, it was to Celestial.
Asst.29 has an excellent post, especially the last paragraph. We are all a team, and we must work together to bring about the goal. All of us (police, fire, EMS) bring unique skills and experience to a scene, and we can't (and should not) try to be jacks of all trades. I have been in the business for a long time, and the "I'm in command" types have never ceased to amaze me- especially when they are trying to command something of which they have little or no training or experience. One of the marks of a great leader is the wisdom to know when they need assistance, and allowing those with the credentials to come in and be a part of the direction of the scene. The other types I think must have some sort of screw loose.
Where I work, if we have a rescue scene, we have a unified command structure, with reps from fire and EMS. EMS has a leading role in this system, because due to the presence of an injured person, those charged with the treatment of that trapped person must have influence (aka "medically directed rescue"). This is common sense to me- to view EMS as a tool, bystander, or keeping them away until FD is done is ludicrous. I was not there, but seems like this EMS person may be new in the job, and needs to have a sit-down with his/her supervisor. Even though my system isn't perfect, if one of these types acted this way on a scene this sit down would happen before he was allowed to answer another call.
well im n emt and the other guy that was n the car with me with the patient was a paramedic and we run ems to. but the ambulance service isnt trained in extrication the fd does all of that. a lot of fd in our area are set up to also run ems/first responder. so technically all the ambulance has to do is show up and transport to the hospital.
ok the problem isnt with the entire ems its with onne paramedic. but since then we've have sat with the owner of the ambulance service and have worked everything out so far verbally i guess we'll just have to wait and see on the next extrication.
The fire department is responsible for extrication. The fire department is responsible for an emergency on the road way. The FIRE DEPARTMENT is responsible for the safety of the patient (victim), EMS and bystanders at the scene of an accident.

There is usually a fire fighter holding C-spine. Our people have been trained in patient packaging and extrication, some are first responders and others are EMTs. My department does not run an ambulance or medical transport but many of our personnel are medically trained. When EMS arrives, if the situation is safe for them to be inside the vehicle they will do that. One of the first things taught in EMS is scene safety and not to put yourself, your partner or others in danger. If EMS or the FD feel it is too dangerous to have EMS in the area of operations, they will wait until it is clear. They usually keep out of the way to let us get the patient free. EMS will be calling the shots when it is time to actually remove the patient from the vehicle in most cases. My department has been working closely with EMS since before we started certifying 1st Responders. Since the 70s the local EMS has trained FFs all over the county to be of assistance to them when necessary. We work well together.

Occassionally a new guy comes on shift who isn't used to working with first responders or FD personnel who might need the proceedure explained to them.
I am part of a very small rural Fire Dept. and EMS service. When responding to an MVC, the FD's role is to expose the pt enough for the EMT's to extricate the pt. FF's can assist with extrication, but it is very much a team operation. We all know our places and do not try to boss the other dept. around. My feeling is as long as there is that kind of understanding, there should be no problem.

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