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Concealed Carry procedures/policies
Recently concealed carry has been passed in my state and there have been some questions regarding some policies or what other places handle issues. Now I understand the majority of people here live where concealed carry is legal and looking for some input as to how you deal with such issues, particularly EMS related as:
Do you transport patients who are armed?
If transporting a pt with a firearm, who do you turn the weapon over to?
How do you handle the armed pt with an altered level of consciousness due to low blood sugar or trauma? Who would disarm the pt and where would a weapon be placed? (especially if law enforcement isn't available)
Do you have a chain of custody for weapons?
Do you have an SOG/P etc in place addressing concealed carry issues?
If a pt is conscious and alert and refuses to disarm, is that considered a refusal for treatment for you?
For the most part, the stance we are going to take is scene safety and leave disarming or weapons removal to law enforcement. The dept doesn't want FF's handling firearms, but the question has been asked about the grey area where a pt is unresponsive and EMS arrives before law enforcement?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by FETC on
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I live in NH, and the powers to be just changed the law from permit conceal carry to anybody can conceal carry, and they changed the law for deadly force from protecting your homestead to protecting you and anyone else who is in emminent danger - Live free or die state. So we now have all these cowboys who feel they are little sheriff's in town and look for controversy. Where I work does not have a department policy yet but needs one to assure we do not end up on the wrong end of a civil liberties lawsuit. Here is my policy for which the guys who work for me uderstand and follow.
Answered by your questions above...
1. We do not transport anyone who is armed with any kind of a weapon. No different than allowing a knife or baseball bat post street fight.
2. They are told to leave the weapon at home, with loved one, with a friend, in their car, or if we are not at their residence they are to give it to the LEO.
3. The altered LOC patient who is armed would be disarmed by the LEO. They are trained for disarming people, they have weapons (deadly force and non-lethal) and it is within their scope of practice. If we had to wait 30 minutes or longer, so be it, thats why they put a good stereo system in the bus.
4. Chain of custody? NO we do not have a chain of custody set. If you needed one, they would have broken the law and it would be a LEO issue for controlling the weapon.
5. No department policy as of yet, except we are not allowed to carry ourselves. No firearms period. BTW: the ER is not going to take the patient who is armed either. Private facility has the right to set the rules that you will abide if you want to be treated.
6. CAO patient who refuses to disarm is treated like any other CAO patient, we would explain that they are not allowed in our bus or the ER with the weapon, disarm themselves or find another avenue to transport you. Get walking bozo.
This concelaed carry thing is silly, most are afraid of their own shadow and feel the only "protection" they have is whatever they are carrying. Come on, so dangerous that the ambulance personnel who are caring for you are not carrying or in vests. Some CC guys are legit for their line of work, but even still, some of their work is criminal in nature, drug dealing, etc. Like I said, my state allows everyone to carry regardless of your mindset today.
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Permalink Reply by 55 TRUCK on
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In Indiana you get a LTCH (License to carry handgun). Indiana you can carry concealed or you can open carry. Most times we have the leo secure the patients side arm.
On the rare ocassion where we have to do it. Then that isn't a problem, most guys I know on the job are either vets like myself or they are also hunters etc. Some one will secure the weapon. Just be sure that should the need arise and it will. Whoever does secure the weapon has firearms experience..Playing Call of Duty on Xbox doesn't count.
I would find out who on your crew has experience with weapons and in those cases where you must secure a firearm before leo arrives. This person or persons would be the one charged with doing it.
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55 truck at least to get your license to carry there is a background like NCIC or FBI check. Here everyone used to be able to OPEN carry without a license or permit. Now the law has changed to Conceal Carry without a license or permit. So you can buy one from the corner and pack it in your belt legally. We had some brutal events last year in our state that the policticans decided to change our laws on defending yourself. Before it used to be, defend yourself or family in your homestead with deadly force. Now it is anywhere you are at anytime, so we have been dispatched to altercations outside bars for example and one guy is carrying and uses the new law to say he was touched, punched, kicked and now has the legal right to draw and defend himself. Like I said, back to the old days of horse and buggies and everyone carrying.
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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Couple things FETC,
First, you mention that this is your policy, so for your dept you don't have anything addressing concealed carry? If not, then is it safe to assume every crew is going to operate differently when encountering such a circumstance?
We do not transport anyone who is armed with any kind of a weapon. No different than allowing a knife or baseball bat post street fight
Is there a law or something that says you don't? I can understand the person who may be violent etc, but what about those patients who may refuse to disarm, is there really any legal say that you don't have to or can't transport if they refuse to disarm? (this question did come up and also why looking for input)
On the same token, what about that trauma pt etc who may be gorked and a weapon is found during a physical exam. I know you said you would wait for LE, but if say your have to get going before LE arrives, or even find another weapon that wasn't initially found......What is your procedure for this and do the hospitals accept personal weapons and take them from fire personnel?
Chain of custody? NO we do not have a chain of custody set. If you needed one, they would have broken the law and it would be a LEO issue for controlling the weapon.
Not so much with law violation but accountability. If transporting a pt and the weapon is removed and say even turned over to hospital security etc, and the pt says their weapon is now missing, is there anything saying that it was turned over? In some places (I've seen a couple policies) a weapon is brought back to a fire station in a lock box where a pt can come pick it up later, so that is where such a chain of custody question stems from.
CAO patient who refuses to disarm is treated like any other CAO patient, we would explain that they are not allowed in our bus or the ER with the weapon, disarm themselves or find another avenue to transport you
I personally agree with the sentiment, but like I said the question was raised if there is even a legal authority to enforce such a thing? Given that local ordinance etc doesn't prevent weapons from public and municipal property, how could such a "policy" thus be enforced then and are you opening your crew to possible litigation if a pt doesn't want to disarm? Would you agree or disagree that there perhaps be something in place to address such issues?
I appreciate your time here and I'm trying to get more information about how other depts operate. The issue was discussed with our management and part of this is because of the question if we even need some policy or writing in place/ I have been going around to stations and crews getting info and these are some of the questions I've been presented with. Another aspect is we have been told by law enforcement that they will not take custody of any weapons, which implies the onus is on the FD, especially since we haven't heard what the hospitals will be doing.
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On the rare ocassion where we have to do it. Then that isn't a problem, most guys I know on the job are either vets like myself or they are also hunters etc. Some one will secure the weapon. Just be sure that should the need arise and it will. Whoever does secure the weapon has firearms experience..
I would find out who on your crew has experience with weapons and in those cases where you must secure a firearm before leo arrives. This person or persons would be the one charged with doing it.We have discussed this and it was the agreement between health and safety committee and management that LE would be called to disarm any pt. The question arose about those pts where you can't really wait for LE or finding another weapon once transporting, etc. Another factor to resisting FD personnel handle any weapons is that it may start to focus attention to the weapon vs pt care. There just doesn't want to be the issue of any FD handling weapons, despite one's personal experiences and training. Cutting away a holster etc is one thing where a weapon is left in a holster, etc, but then goes back to turning the property over as well, if hospitals would take it or not.
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John, you missed my point in the first paragraph of my post that stated, we need a department policy (like you) otherwise we could end up on the wrong end of civil liberties lawsuit.
I know of no fire department that have one... Now on the other hand, go ask a cop if he or she will give a ride in their police cruiser, to an armed person who was involved or maybe not involved in let's say... a family dispute, (or) if would they disarm them before offering said ride to the PD or ER.... I am willing to bet they will say absolutely no.
I know our local ER wil not allow an armed patient into their ER. It is not a public place. (their rules) If the ER does not allow it, why would the ambulance knowingly bring in a patient who was armed?
Same goes for some local establishments around here, they will not allow any patrons to be armed while in their establishment. Starting to see more of these signs lately after the new law. I mean, people drinking, tempers flare and thus a fight breaks out and maybe one is conceal carrying. The bouncers are not even armed....
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John, you missed my point in the first paragraph of my post that stated, we need a department policy (like you) otherwise we could end up on the wrong end of civil liberties lawsuit.
No, I understood the aspect, which is why my follow up question was in regards that if these are your personal rules, then would it be safe to assume that anyone could have different rules?
The reason for asking the question is to see what is out there currently and how other depts do handle such issues. The question posed to my committee was "Do we even need a policy at all?" so that is why the reasearch has been spurned. Talking with crews, the opinions vary, but the majority so far believes there should be something in place. It looks to me as though you may agree with having some type of policy in place as well.
The reason for asking on ERs was because of the sticking point which could be generated too. As mentioned LE here already said they will not take custody of any firearms, the question was posed as to the legality of making someone disarm and establishing a policy that conflicts with the municipal ordinance and if the ER wouldn't take the personal property, it essentially puts the onus on the FD. Which in turn opens up another set of issues, including accountability and a chain of custody.
Thank you for your time in this matter.
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I feel everyone should understand the law. That may lead to a policy or not. To each is own. I have posed your question to our powers to be who include our City Attorney. I suggest your committee include the city attorney, the IAFF attorney on retainer, and/or other legal council if possible.
I do know that private entity has different rights as far as civil liberties like a bar, restaurant, hospital, or EMS provider, they can deny the armed transport if they wish because they are a private entity and that is their rules.
Like I said we are starting to see new signage at private places like: No shirt, No shoes, No GUNS allowed.
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Which may end up being the case. I do appreciate your answer here and am actually quite shocked that there is not more input on this discussion.
I highly doubt there isn't something in place for all the other 48 states that have concealed carry. I know there are more members here than just WI, IL, NH, and IN and I'm sure this may be an issue elsewhere. I really would like some more input here
........................................................Or are helmet color and game threads more important????????
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Permalink Reply by Bull on
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Thanks John for asking this question. We have been wondering as well on how we are going to handle this new concealed weapon issue.
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Bull,
Given some other sites and the responses I've been receiving, I say no problem for bringing it up. I really doubt that any of us really have an issue with the fact that CC will now be legal, but how to address those gray areas.
I know there are places that have lock boxes on ambos, they have chain of custody forms and so forth, there are policies in place etc. I also understand there are places in this state that have differing views as well, and considering the questions and "unknowns" I personally don't feel it is out of line to address the issue.
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Permalink Reply by Michael P. Burke on
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I highly doubt there isn't something in place for all the other 48 states that have concealed carry. I know there are more members here than just WI, IL, NH, and IN and I'm sure this may be an issue elsewhere. I really would like some more input here
I will see what the deal is on this in Virginia. I know that Virginia has been on the forefront of the whole CC issue for a while. Even as I have a background in Security, the subject gets talked about a lot. I would be very interested in knowing what the standard operating procedure is in a case like that and who should be tasked with the responsibility of administering it. Every state is going to have different laws and I know first hand that Virginia's laws and Maryland's laws come up starkly different more often than not.
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