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Charged or Uncharged Hoseline
Do YOU go in wet or dry? Why?
Helmet cam video of this Pennsylvania house fire drew some comments from readers about entering with an uncharged hoseline,
"Hmm one question....why would you go into a burning building without a charged hose line? A empty line will do nothing for you, especially if no life was in danger. Unnecessary risk." Shane Reed
"I would have gone in with out the line charged. it looked like 10 cents worth of fire, a dry line is a lot easier to lug around than a charged one." Timothy Dexter, Jr.
Every fire and size-up is different. How you might do something will vary from someone else based on training, staffing, alarm assignment, size-up, ect.
In their article "Dry & Wet Hoseline Stretches" Mike Kirby and Tom Lakamp look back at where and when you need to charge that line before the initial attack. They also look at a related line of duty death from their own department.
When does your nozzle team call for water?
What conditions influence you decision to stretch dry?
How much does staffing play a part of your decision?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jason Van Order on
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Don my apologies for thinking you were with FDNY just see them mentioned often with posts involving you. Second on a topic like this there is no right or wrong answer. I understand your side but personally i wouldnt do it. But then again thats what makes the fire service so different from any other service out there. The variety of tactics are amazing. Even neighboring depts. might not do things the same way. I just dont understand why he needs to attack you and you need to attack back. Also just because you dont care what any other dept. is doing it might be worth giving a listen to see if just by chance there is a better faster or safer way to do something. That should be our main focus is to save lives and property while doing it as fast and safe as possible. Not bicker over who is right and who is wrong on a subject that has no right or wrong answer.
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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on
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Jason,
I am not a new kid on the block in the fire service, I have trained with, and worked with, some of the best in the country. When I say I don't care what your department does that extrapolates out to we have learned through trial and error what works best for us in our circumstances. That means we have taken training, practiced our evolutions, and finally used them real world. Further if we find something needs tweaking or changing we do that. To me the worst reason for doing anything is we have always done it that way. Well, unless we can still prove it is the best way to do it!
I never said anyone should do what we do in the way we do it. Repeatedly, despite my explanations, I was told I was wrong by Stephen when he wouldn't even respond to why we did what we did. Frankly, there is plenty they do in the UK we wouldn't do here because we deem it unsafe and impractical. Would I tell Stephen not to do it? Well, maybe the high pressure booster reel, but otherwise why would I care? It doesn't affect me or my firefighters in the least.
To get understanding you have to give some and he seems short on supply of that if he disagrees with you.
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Don i know you are not a probie and have some good experience behind you. And as far as your tactic and training i have no doubt your dept busts butt to be the best at what they do. But you have to also admit that things are constantly changing so being open to at least listen to new ideas (right or wrong) isnt a bad thing either. I respect what you say on here as well as many others because of the vast knowledge you seasoned vets bring to the table. You are very right on the "do it this way because thats the way its alway been done" theory. Thats a great way to get guys killed. As to the booster hose i have saw a video from the UK that was pretty neat. They did a demo of a room 50% involved and used a booster line with a fog nozzle and less than 10 gal of water and put it out with no danger to the firefighters. I think booster lines got a bad rap here in the states is because guys got lazy and would pull the booster line over the 1 3/4 or 2 1/2 because it was easier. We all know on a well involved structure that just wont work for one and its just not smart to take on inside. Ill see if i can find that video and post a link here for you. Just something to think about.
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Jason, my current department is VERY open to new ideas and technology. We have a very open policy about firefighters bringing in ideas to try and equipment to test. We strongly encourage that. We are the first in our area to train on flow path and transitional attack. So don't believe that we are stuck in our ways.
As for the high pressure booster line, my biggest beef is there is no safety margin. In fact, I believe the SOP in the UK is the high pressure line must be backed up with a standard hoseline. Seems unnecessarily labor intensive to me.
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True there is no safety margin but i would bet under certain conditions it could be useful. I cant seem to find the video but it was used when the fire was in the late Incipient early growth stage on a single room. Anything more than that would require a larger line. It was very effective and used very little water. Not saying its going to become the norm here but not something to totally rule out. We have one booster line but thats tucked away in the storage shed out back so we dont even think about it.
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Dont get me wrong im not trying to push going back to the booster hose but at times it could serve a good purpose. In terms of limiting damage it worked great to reduce water damage. But on the flip side I would still chose the bigger line for the job. Just in case things go south.
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Permalink Reply by captnjak on
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Jason Van Order said:True there is no safety margin but i would bet under certain conditions it could be useful. I cant seem to find the video but it was used when the fire was in the late Incipient early growth stage on a single room. Anything more than that would require a larger line. It was very effective and used very little water. Not saying its going to become the norm here but not something to totally rule out. We have one booster line but thats tucked away in the storage shed out back so we dont even think about it.
"The late incipient early growth stage"? That's a mouthful! I'd suggest keeping it a little more simple.
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captnjak said:
Jason Van Order said:True there is no safety margin but i would bet under certain conditions it could be useful. I cant seem to find the video but it was used when the fire was in the late Incipient early growth stage on a single room. Anything more than that would require a larger line. It was very effective and used very little water. Not saying its going to become the norm here but not something to totally rule out. We have one booster line but thats tucked away in the storage shed out back so we dont even think about it.
"The late incipient early growth stage"? That's a mouthful! I'd suggest keeping it a little more simple.
Hey go easy on me. Im just a probie :)
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The simple fact is the NFPA calls for at least a 100 gpm for an interior attack line. No booster line, let alone a high pressure booster line, can meet that. Pleading ignorance of the standard will not protect you in court.
Do whatever you wish, we prefer to have big water at hand if needed.
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Stephen Duffy said:http://my.firefighternation.com/video/hoseline-deployment-single-fa...
This video looks good to me......
It is a good video, but once again not the only way to do that tactic. The line easily could have been brought in dry to the base of the steps, flaked out and then charged.
By the way, I would have had a little chat with the nozzleman for repeatedly water hammering the line before they entered the structure.
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Kyle,
I thought I was very fair, it is a good video. I have moved hose that way many times.
The water hammering the line though served no purpose though.
I have wondered how many people actually believe you could do that with an extinguisher. I am afraid it would not end well at all!!
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I wouldn't if I were you. Not unless you have extra fingers or hands laying around.
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