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And they watched it burn, again...
Before you comment read my whole post...
Well the story has broke again. I made this prediction in the many threads from the last fire in 2010 that got the FFN boards lit up. History repeats itself in the fire service. The homeowner this time admits they knew the past story of "Pay for Spray" in 2010 and about the $75.00 fee. They said quote, "never thought it would happen to them."
Here is the news video: http://www.wpsdlocal6.com/news/local/Home-burns-while-firefighters-...
In my opinion, the FD who refuses to put out the fire is doing the right thing. As hard as that may seem, if the FD provides the service for free, then nobody in the county will pay. This story has been going on for many years. For those who don't know, the county has NO fire department, the residents know this. Many move there because it is cheaper to live there. Past studies have been done to reccommend providing fire protection services but it will cost the homewowner more in their county taxes. The county administrators have decided to keep it "Pay for Spray" meaning a neighboring fire department who does NOT have any jurisdictional requirement to respond to your county residence, is allowed to offer their services to each individual homeowner for $75.00 per year. If you pay the $75.00 subscription service, you will get a response and mitigation from the neighboring FD. This is not mutual aid, this is not automatic aid. This is paying for fire protection from a contractor. If you don't pay the fee, the FD has told everyone numerous times, no pay = no service.
In my opinion the lack of FD action keeps the integrity of the lousy system in place. The people who pay are getting services when needed and they are NOT subsidizing their neighbors lack of payment. The fire department unfortunately gets caught up in the media and the "passion police" when the story of "they just watched it burn" After the last story unfolded, many neighboring chiefs came out and tried to explain how small of a budget this fire department has, one chief even mentioned the fire chief sometimes, empty's the soda machine to buy fuel for his trucks with change.
So instead of continuously being the bad guy, I suggest the Mayor and the Fire Chief tell the county administrators that they are done offering subscriptions next year. Therefore no more subscription service to the county and the COUNTY will now have to fund their own protection services. The administrators will then have to assess a fire tax to their residents to fund either a volunteer fire department(s) or pay for services from another FD for every county residence.
Time to end the subsciption mess...... it is a black eye to the one's who have to enforce the rules and the integrity.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Bradley,
Your statement that it was "inethical" (sic) for the SFFD to let the home burn is flatly incorrect.
It would have been completely unethical for them to fight that fire without a subscription, as it would have created a double standard with their relationship with their subscribers.
You keep confusing the issue with non-pertinent analogies like your question about what I would do as a Good Samaritain at a car wreck. It's not pertinent because life is involved, a subscription is NOT involved, and the situation in Obion County, TN is not involved.
I understand that you disagree. Unfortunately, you are disagreeing based on a flawed understanding of the situation and your examples of why you think SFFD should have fought the fire are - still - apples to oranges comparisons.
Your repeated attempts to force unrealistic solutions onto the SFFD and the Obion County residents, and your continued insistance that SFFD should have fought the fire just to avoid some potential bad press are deeply flawed and unworkable.
After the facts have been pointed out to you over and over, you still have the gall to claim that SFFD's actions were unethical when you can't even get the facts straight? You shouldn't be surprised that someone would eventually tire of your lack of fact-based reasoning on this one and point it out in a way that hints at a possible reason for your unrealistic approach.
You have the right to your opinion. When you post it in public, other people have an equal right to debate it, to debunk it with facts, and to poke fun at you in a far softer way than the manner in which you are still attacking the SFFD while (bogusly) claiming that you are not.
You can't have it both ways. You were the one that opened the door that Jack came through. That means you have zero basis on which to complain about it.
The "right thing to do" - that is EXACTLY what the SFFD did. You are trying to claim that they did not, based on your admitted disregard for the facts. That is a pretty weak basis to somehow claim that you are right and they are not.
And...when you state that you will not change your opinion, and "No amount of persuasion or facts can change that.", in a choice between smart or not-so-smart, which one do you think best fits the person that would make such a statement?
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Permalink Reply by 55 TRUCK on
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First off Bradely, Jack is a rude A@@h@l~. But if he wasn't he wouldn't be
Jack. So don't get your panties in a bunch over what he said.
Secondly I agree the fire should if been put out. The city lawyers can hash
it out with the home owners afterwards. I feel it is wrong for the political powers
to put our brother firefighters in that position. I am sure that it is very hard for
them to stand there and do nothing.
I have never been placed in this situation, I know I never will. 1. Reason and
it is probably the most important. In Indiana property tax pays for fire service, so no
opting out. 2. By Indiana law all local goverments. Be they, city,town or
township must provide fire protection be it Paid, vol or combo.
3rdly. For us this would be an unlawfull order.
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Why don't they treat it as a training burn.
This is off topic. If any of you get to Indy for FDIC. Let me know. Be great
to have a beer and shoot the....er I mean have a conversation. This invite includes
you to Jack.
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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Bradley,
My comment to Ben was a virtual lean-over-nudge-and-roll-my-eyes. My comment to Ben was NOT about you, but (and of course, by your own admission you didn't bother to read most of the replies) was in frustration to the continued comments from people who are compelled to express how wrong SFFD was to not put out the fire. Moreover, everyone who expresses that opinion seems to have a very high moral opinion of themselves, yourself included. Let me explain.
You are now all in a tither because you feel compared to special needs kids but you shouldn't. I used to work with special needs kids, they are awesome. Innocent, guileless, eager and fun. So I wouldn't insult them by putting you into their category.
You,like so many others, really just want to show how high up on your high white horse you really are. Ironically (and by your own, repeated admission) you condemn the County, the city of South Fulton, the SFFD, spout off about ethics and ethical behavior, all the while seasoning your comments with statements like "I don't care", "I don't know, nor does it bother me," "Not my department don't care."
So if you DON'T care, why bother to express an opinion? It's funny that you don't care; about the homeowners, residents, fire department. What seems to bother you most is this imagined 'black eye' of which you speak. Almost every day you can find a news item about something bad about a fire department, firefighter or even chief. If your image of yourself is so closely tied to what residents in ",,,bass-ackwards Tennessee" might think of you then you must be very insecure. (relax, I don't mean that in a bad way).
Please don't see this as a personal attack, but your opinion doesn't matter. Wait, it's not like mine does either. But throughout this entire discussion (and there are another 3 separate discussions on this same topic) I have stood by the brothers of SFFD. I have repeated the FACTS of the situation in these discussions and defended the SFFD.
I feel for them, they must have hated to stand by and watch a house burn and I'm sure they are embarrassed by all of the bad publicity. But just imagine, that when it seems the entire world is down on you for doing what you were told to do, for following a legal order (regardless of whether you thought it was the 'right thing to do'), that the people you would expect to back you up - fellow firefighters- are instead standing line for their turn to throw mud and stones at you.
That, Bradley, is what you (and others) have been doing. You talk hollow platitudes about some supposed 'brotherhood' but when it comes to down to actually being a brother, you can't be. You are overwhelmed and compelled to act and speak out from some self-perceived higher moral ground. So once again, I'm sitting here, shaking my head in disgust.
SFFD did nothing wrong, only trying to do the best they can in a situation the keeps getting shittier and shittier. But I'm sure they are happy to know that there are brothers, standing behind them, waiting for the opportunity to slide their knife into the collective backs of SFFD. Yay for you high moral saints!
Finally, your own words sum you up more thoroughly and more completely than I ever could.
"That is my opinion. I am allowed to it. No amount of persuasion or facts can change that."
You're right, you are entitled to your opinion, as are all of us. But when you will stand by your opinion, regardless, and in defiance of, the FACTS, it doesn't make you right, it doesn't make you moral, it doesn't even make you honorable. It makes you ignorant. Something we don't need MORE of in the fire service. Oh well, yet another black eye.
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Permalink Reply by Bradley Webb on
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Jack/dt you explained it better than anyone. You also could have explained the Special Needs thing better. Remember after all I'm a lowly ignorant fireman. ;-) I stand behind South Fulton (I keep getting SFFD confused with San Francisco, so I'm going to use South Fulton if you don't mind). Sure you reiterated that, and I will follow them and would probably fight fire with them if I knew them. To me and I don't place myself (at least I hope I don't come out that way) on a moral high ground, I place the ENTIRE FIRE SERVICE on a moral high ground. The fire service as a whole is probably one of the most morally right services' ever. Cops, EMS, and the military are close behind. All firefighters protect property at the cost of their own lives, how much morally right can you get than that? That is just how I place it. From a kid up until know, the fire dept always makes the right calls, and always does what is right. South Fulton and many other people such as yourself know that it was right to let it burn. So be it, I will back you to the end of the earth, I don't have to like it, but I will follow it. It was the right thing to do for them. I have followed many things I didn't like in my own departments, regardless of how I felt. However, I don't know why I didn't think of this, it came up last time this happened. 55 Truck hit it on the nose, put it out and then let the politicians and homeowners deal with it. Then South Fulton cannot be looked at badly in anyway, EXCEPT by the homeowners who pay their $75, and by the county and city gov't. Truthfully it's never a good thing when the people who pay you are mad at you, because usually heads will roll, however I think even then they could have the backing of every firefighter.
Here's a good question would you have backed South Fulton if they fought the fire and then let politics take over from there? Did what was politically wrong, yet socially acceptable?
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The problem is that South Fulton has already tried that - and it didn't work.
If they do it once, they'll be morally and legally obligated to do it for everyone.
At that point, they'll have two choices - either a) stop fighting fires in the county completely, which as I've already pointed out to you will remove fire protection from those who have paid for it and who are contractually entitled to it, or b) hello, bankrupt city FD that can't protect anyone.
"Put it out and then let the politicians and homeowners deal with it." is an unethical, unsustainable, and financially suicidal option for the SFFD.
Obion County's council has already demonstrated that they WILL NOT "deal with it".
What you and 55 Truck want is simply not a rational decision. If you give away free fire protection to one property owner, then you have to do it for everyone. South Fulton can't afford to do that outside the city limits where they have no other revenue source.
And...if South Fulton gives one or two homeowners free fire protection while charging everyone else, then we're right back to square one - they are demonstrably doing the unethical thing because people who don't live there don't like their system.
What occurred IS "socially acceptable" in the unincorporated areas of Obion County.
There is also a deeper issue here - the right of local taxpayers to self-determine the local rules. Obion County's citizens have that right, no matter how much of an imaginary black eye (Thanks for that one, Jack) outsiders think it gives local fire services. You and everyone else who doesn't live there have no right to cram our beliefs or the way we'd like to see it down the locals' throats. That is exactly what you are trying to do here.
I'm sure that the Obion County residents respect your county taxpayers rights to make their own local rules and to elect people who will carry out the locals' will. You should extend the Obion County taxpayers the same courtesy.
South Fulton cannot be looked at in a bad way by anyone who bases his/her opinion on the facts. You have repeatedly said that you don't care about the facts. That means that you believe in something that is not real.
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...and it's not pertinent, because Tennessee law is different.
By Tennessee law, the only two services that MUST be provided by local government are law enforcement and garbage collection.
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Once again I will say, I care about the facts, just that the facts won't change my opinion on whether they should or should not have put out the fire. So I want to change the scope of our discussion here.
So I have a few questions. Does South Fulton offer this contract to ALL of Obion County, including the other cities in the county? All 35,000 or so residents? Do the other small cities have their own departments? If they do, then do they have this same business contract venture? How much does South Fulton city residents pay for fire tax? Is it more or less than $75?
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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Does South Fulton offer this contract to ALL of Obion County, including the other cities in the county? All 35,000 or so residents? Do the other small cities have their own departments? If they do, then do they have this same business contract venture? How much does South Fulton city residents pay for fire tax? Is it more or less than $75?
If you kept abreast of the conversations, you would know the answers. Other cities in the county already have their own fire protection, the subscription fee is based for those who live in the UNINCORPORATED areas of the county. Those who live in other communities like South Fulton, pay taxes for the fire protection and they also are within the jurisdiction of the FD............it is those who live OUTSIDE such city limits who pay NO taxes for fire who are thus offered a subscription. And yes, there are other departments in the county that also offer subscription service contracts.
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So approx how many people live in the unincorporated area that South Fulton offers this service too? Again I ask how much South Fulton City Residents pay for fire tax? I can't find how much I pay cause it is not listed, so I have no basis to go on. Just a simple guess would be better than nothing. If every one of the residents of South Fulton paid $75 worth of fire tax, that would equal $188,775. That's probably nowhere near right, however it's the only basis I have to make a guess. Our budget is roughly $50,000 more, and we cover twice the area and almost 1000 more residents. I'm just trying to figure out why South Fulton is struggling so bad financially and NEEDS this contract service so much. If someone can explain that in a decent way then I'll let my guard down and give up. To me (and tell me if I'm wrong), it seems like that if they get so much money from this contract service and will go bankrupt if they don't have it, then that means that South Fulton city itself is not paying a reasonable amount of fire tax to support the dept and in turn is getting fire service paid for mostly by someone else outside the jurisdiction. Am I wrong?
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See the attached PDF, it is the proposal for a county-wide fire department made in 2008.
In the presentation you will find this; On January 19, 1987, the Obion County Commission passed a resolution establishing an Obion County Fire Department, but no action was taken to implement the resolution. Therefore, Obion County has a county fire department on paper, but is unmanned, unfunded and not operational.
See here and here and the earlier report here. From this last link, this quote, dated Oct. 5, 2010;
Ironically, the issue of county-wide fire protection resurfaced and discussion of an agreement began a little over two years ago [2008!] following a similar rural fire situation near South Fulton.
So since 2008 there has now been 3 similar incidents, a house fire where the homeowner had NOT paid/opted in to the subscription service.This link has the following headline;
Commission OKs pact for county-wide fire protection
Posted: Monday, October 18, 2010 9:21 pmBut clearly, given this recent incident, either the unincorporated area of Obion County adjacent to South Fulton is not included or, it isn't yet a done deal.
Read through the attachment (PDF), there are some interesting facts and figures on how to fund a county-wide fire department.
Spoiler Alert - by adding $5/mo to ALL county resident electric meters raises around $600,000. It can be done, it can be done inexpensively, it only NEEDS to be done. Now if only someone could come up with a way of actually getting it done. I guess we'll have to leave it up to the residents of Obion County, TN.
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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on
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Jack wrote, "You are now all in a tither because you feel compared to special needs kids but you shouldn't. I used to work with special needs kids, they are awesome. Innocent, guileless, eager and fun. So I wouldn't insult them by putting you into their category."
That's priceless Jack! That has so made my day.....
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