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Alternative duties for explorers.
Because as an explorer I cannot perform extrication or internally fight structure fires. Would it be a good idea to excell my training in maybe HAZMAT, medical response, rope rescue, etc.? That way even though I might be a weakness in some situations, I could also be a strength in others. I thought of this because I enjoy learning as much as I can when it comes to the fire service and I think becoming a more valuable asset to the department would be a great idea. Any input on this would be great.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Paul Montpetit on
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Matt, if you have read any of my posts you know already what my outlook is for explorers....In my book you would not be on any calls except maybe to help with rehab or as a gofer (go for this or go for that)...I am sorry but the liability is far too great....we have all we can do to look out for the adults on scene let alone some Jrs...I know this isn't what you were looking for but it is my honest opinion....Good luck...your day will come...............Paul
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Permalink Reply by TOMMY on
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hey matt... come on down to south cack and we'll put you to training and to work as an explorer post member. of coure with parental permission... and yea.. we got plenty of insurance... and so does the bsa but the likelyhood of you needing it is almost more remote than the chances of these other guys ever embracing an explorer program or what it means to a community.
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Interesting Matt...I hope your Department knows what it is doing...as in Ky to even be eligible to take FFI (esstentials) you have to be 18 years old according to KRS Chapter 95...and according to the information provided by your State you have to be 18 years old to take Basic EMT as well.....In Ky you cannot even challenge if you are from out of State with Certification unless you are 18 years old....If you cannot meet the requirements for certification then you might have to take it again when you do....any training is great and I admire your enthusiasm and am sure you will make a fine Firefighter in your time....Good luck...........Paul
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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Because as an explorer (who IS allowed to respond to emergency calls with my department while on the apparatus)
Riding along is one thing, operating on the fireground is something completely different. You mention about interior FF, but reality is, especially if you are affiliated with Learning for Life, you should not be doing ANY fire suppression, including exterior. That is where much of this issue lies and the issue is you are still a kid, so if you want to keep participating in such a capacity, because your dept turns a blind eye, it is best not to argue the merits of such with seasoned FF's.
but bickering back and forth on what explorers should and shouldn't do doesn't help me with this question.
Take a bit of a step back. First there have been some good suggestions for you to pursue, just don't expect to be utilized as a responder until you are 18. Now, as you see here, many threads take on a life of their own, you are an explorer asking what extra you can do. The issue lies in the fact that there are just as many adults who think it is OK for kids to operate as FF's as it does with kids. This is a public thread and many people can view this and think they should also pursue HAZMAT or tech rescue stuff and then expect to be utilized as a responder. THAT is the issue at hand. Just because a dept allows kids to be utilized in a capacity on the fireground does not make it right. This thread is just as much as educating those who think it is OK, as it is to assist you with your question.
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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TO PAINT THE WHOLE THING AS THEY HAVE NO PLACE ON THE FIREGROUND... IS, WELL A LITTLE OVER THE TOP. Not really, as it is my opinion that the fireground is NO place for a minor. Unless they are nailed to the rig or planted on the OTHER side of the yellow tape there is no guaranty for their safety.
MULTIPLE LIVE FIRE TRAINING EVOLUTIONS Last time I looked, one had to be 18 to do ANY LIVE FIRE training. Unless it is in a Class B burn house (questionable even then) they have no business anywhere near live fire training.
VERTICLE VENTILATION, There is only one way to perform vertical ventilation and that's from up on top. Under 18 (and especially in the BSA Learning For Life Explorer Program) they may not climb higher than 6 feet.
SUCH AS OPERATE PUMPS There is no way a minor has ANY business operating the pump. In order to be a equipment/pump operator NFPA requires FFI, which means under 18, not possible. And who in their right mind would let a 16 or 17 (or even 18( year old be responsible for pump ops!?!?
ESTABLISH SUPPLY LINES, MAKE HAYDRANT CONNECTIONS, You're going to allow a minor to secure a water supply that is going to support the attack crew? No way, sorry, I would not risk my crew betting a 17 year old "got it right".
PERFORM OVERHAUL UNDER LIMITED SITUATIONS, Under what conditions? All clear by the IC, all fire extinguished, no smoldering, area has been and is still being monitored for CO (and what about hydrogen cyanide?) Overhaul is quite often performed while on air (or should be) and you're allowing minors into an IDLH?
PACK HOSE, Better not be above 6 feet.
DIRECT TRAFFIC, Minors directing TRAFFIC? Seriously, trained, adult firefighters (and cops) get hit, injured and killed because drunks and idiots aren't paying attention and you're going to toss out your next generation into the traffic?
ADMINISTER FIRE AID AND CPR, To whom? Victims? I hope those kids are EMT's.
ACCOUNTABILITY, Sorry, nope. Not going to have a child being responsible for who is where on the fireground.
SALVAGE Operating inside the same building to throw salvage covers while fire operations are ongoing? No way?
NOT HAVING THE EXPLORER PROGRAM WOULD KILL OUR RECRUITMENT AND RETENTION EFFORTS How is this so? You mean if you don't get the kids at 15 or 16, when they turn 18 they'll have no interest in joining your department? I can't believe that. It may indeed (an explorer program) instill a great interest and desire in the kiddies to join and learn, but if you think the only way to keep them interested is to put them into situations where they could get injured or killed, your department is going to be in for it should something ever happen to one of those kids. BSA liability is only going to cover an explorer that was involved in approved activities. Likewise your departmental liability is going to waffle about covering them.
Go back and re-read what I've written, I never said I was against explorer programs (and their ilk), nor did I say I have never worked with such a program. Only that I do not believe, nor is it allowed, to have and use minors on the fireground. Now if your state laws (and then most likely NOT an OSHA state) allow for minors I'm a bettin' it's in a highly restricted manner. If it's not, and I'm all wrong about this, you have my apologies in advance, as well as my condolences. Because with the former, it's almost guaranteed that you'll be needing the latter.
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Matt,
...but bickering back and forth... In my first comment to you, I said, Depending on the response to your post, you may find that many think that you can and should be used in a wide range of fireground duties, others will (agree with me and) say that it should only be observational, at best. It's what's called a discussion, NOT bickering. For you to classify it as such comes across as a reprimand from a child towards adults. Not the best way to argue your case and comments such as yours are what paint all explorers/juniors/cadets in a less than favorable light.
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I have another question....who is liable if one of these kids get hurt or God forbid killed...? Does a parent have to sign a waiver to release the Department, Village, City from responsibility...? What does their insurance carrier have to say about the matter...? Would be interesting to get some answers.....Paul
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Permalink Reply by C on
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Five of our explorers, including me, were able to get our firefighter one while still in high school. I still can't go in but I can help with hose and in some cases we can go in after the fire.
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Permalink Reply by Scotty V on
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I'm just putting my $.02 in, and yes even though I am a Jr. and Yes i may be outta line on this but i just want to point out something
1. What is the point of having an explorer/jr. program if a. they cannot respond/ just observe, honestly whats the point of issuing gear to them?
2. What is the point of having them train constantly for 2-4 years and then the explorer(s) possibly will leave for school.
3. What is the point of these programs then? well in my area almost 60% of our firefighters where jrs, so it is a good recruitment tool then cause when people like me are interested early its keeps us hooked cause when we turn 18, we would probably forget about joining because where going off to collage.
4. Yes, I understand about liability, but if an explorer can't run, can't really do hands on drills then what are you supposed to do with them? make them study for 4 years?
5. As you may know many firefighters don't like packing hose, and you prob would like those extra hands around to help pack hose, also about hydrant hitting why don't you think a 16-17 can't do it?
6. If I was only to do the things you stated, stand there and stare blankly at a fire or a training exercise or just be put in a room and constantly be thrown books and to study off of them i would be one bored person and probably quit.
These are just my opinions and they reflect me, and me only if you have a problem with them I fully understand and I respect that.
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Didn't make the rules...just going by them, more than a few Departments have been shut down by lawsits for NOT following the RULES...I love my Department, I work hard when I am there and I don't want anything to put it or its future in jeopardy....You will get your time....sure you can drill (Just not live fire) And I hate to be a prick...but if you are going to quit...well, then do so...if you are going to quit for something like this then you would probably quit while going through your Probationary phase anyways....you think being a "probie" is a piece of cake...?
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Im not going to quit i love the fire service, yes i know being a probie sucks majorly but everyone goes through it (i hope) but here is the thing my department I'm an active member I can respond to calls, i can help out on scenes and everything I've been trained to do, I'm not allowed in hazardous atmospheres and not allowed to be on certain calls. But for me I'm a hands on type person and i what I stated above where opinions, but yes I do agree with rules that are set and I know they are they to A. Protect me, B. Protect the department. and C. to set a proper learning environment for people.
Also should we be part of the fire service?
Thanks for the reply be safe.
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