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ADA and Firefighters
I was wondering how people felt about recruits who are disabled going through academy? What is your opinion on this? We have a recruit with uses a handicap placard whenever he goes someplace, even to the station. He is very overweight, I would like to say grossly. I do not know the reason for his acceptance except maybe to satisfy a portion of the American with Disabilities Act. That way no discrimination is show? Or to prove a point that maybe he should not have joined? I don't know the full reasoning so this is only my viewpoint.
How do other stations handle applications from those with handicaps?
I know that the three out stations that I drill with do not feel comfortable being on a call with this person cause if poop hit the fan we do not trust that he would be able to perform. If he is on a call with me do I as a probie have the right to tell my commanding officer that I do not feel safe in this persons hands or trust his abilities?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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Diane,
The issue in this discussion is a volunteer recruit who is, "... very overweight, I would like to say grossly."
Are you suggesting that the Department is now responsible for helping that individual lose weight?
If you are worried about his/her ability to perform, try to identify the specific function that you think he/she isn't doing properly, and focus on performance issues -- not the reasons for the performance issues. I think the reason this individual can't perform is directly related to his obesity. To be blunt, he may just be too fat to do much of anything. You think this person should be on the fireground?
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Permalink Reply by Stephanie Shirk on
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Is it being insubordinate to tell your commanding officer that you do not want to go interior with someone you do not feel safe with?
In short, yes. You are disobeying an order. If they are qualified to do so, then you don't have much of a choice. Your concerns may be valid, but you are disobeying an order, so expect to endure the consequences of the actions.
Actually as a Volunteer you have no obligation to do anything. I had a Fire School Instructor say:
"If there is something you don't want to do you don't have to do it, but you better have a reason. And being scared is a reason."
He also mentioned that you will get your balls busted for it and if its a very serious matter then there will most likely be issues with your department. But removal for disobeying an order is one thing but removal because you can not perform an order is different.
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"Actually as a Volunteer you have no obligation to do anything."
""If there is something you don't want to do you don't have to do it, but you better have a reason. And being scared is a reason.""
I think there is no better example of what I mean when I refer to some VFD's as being a social club.
You don't think the rookie on a paid department going into his or her first working fire isn't scared, crawling down a smokey hallway at 0400 with high heat and zero vis? Scared is a perfectly normal reaction, but backing out because of it...you may need to re-think your options here.
"...removal because you can not perform an order is different." If you can not perform an order, on the fireground, then you are not a firefighter.
Honey this ain't sky diving where being scared means you get to stay in the airplane and everything is fine. You're part of crew and backing out at the last minute because you're scared, or its' something you'd just rather not do, delays the action and shorthands the crew. That ain't a fire department, it's a social club.
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Permalink Reply by Diane Seltzer on
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Not at all - if he can't do the duties, it doesn't matter if it's because he's fat (and obesity is not always considered a disability!), lazy, stupid, incompetent, or whatever - what matters is that he cannot perform the essential functions of the job and should not be considered a qualified individual and should NOT be on the fireground. The Department has no responsibility to help him lose weight.
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Permalink Reply by Gary Stevenson on
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Point understood. I think we're comparing apples to apples here but you have red delicious while mine are yellow delicious. :)
I too have never seen an IC not take feedback and use if accordingly. But, I have seen many FDs follow orders blindly because their culture was 'do it or else'. This works for Marines told to storm a beach but our risk/benefit model is slightly different.
I know this is off of the original post but I was replying with the point that there are RARE times when orders may not be followed, through proper means. But if you do, you better be able to accept the outcome of your decision to not follow them... and it can't be because "I 'felt' that I shouldn't do it because I didn't want to because I 'think' this person is 'may' not be able". It has to be something measurable.
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If a person chooses to ride a piece of apparatus and don the equipment then they are obligated to follow orders accordingly.
I have been taught that the 'Duty of Act' has been met when you choose to respond (as a volunteer). If you refuse orders and other criteria is met, it can fall under gross negligence.
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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Actually as a Volunteer you have no obligation to do anything
As Gary mentioned, if you are putting on the hat, you absolutely DO have an obligation.
"If there is something you don't want to do you don't have to do it, but you better have a reason. And being scared is a reason
No it isn't. Fear is there, but fear should not be the driving force, that is why we train and prepare, so that when the times comes we act accordinly and not let fear be the driving factor.
Sorry, but if you are afraid of heights and you have people hanging from the windows, saying you're too scared to climb the ladder to get them is NOT an option. You showed up, you have a duty to act in that case. If you are too scared for the job, then get out of it, that simple.
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So a social club is okay for you, got it.
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Your misinterpreting me here I think....
This is not an issue that I am facing. But there are people in my department who I may not trust and so far thank goodness I have not been in a situation where I have had to deal with that.
I am not saying that the Paid Firefighter is any less scared I am stating that a paid person can be fired if they choose to go against orders where technically a "Vollie" cant.
I also would like to mention however a paid person has a reliable group of people to trust with their life, "vollies" can be almost any joe schmo that passed fire one.
If you can not perform an order, on the fireground, then you are not a firefighter.
Uhm then if you have a heart attack on scene... you are not a firefighter?
If you are trapped in a building... you are not a firefighter?
If you run out of air during a search and rescue and have to leave the building... you are not a fire fighter?
There are plenty of reasons why an order on the fire ground can not be performed. And I am not saying that fear is an acceptable reason in my book, and if it is in yours your in the wrong career. But along with that you cant be kicked out if you do.
I am a member of a "Vollie" Fire Department and I am proud, Thanks!
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there are RARE times when orders may not be followed, through proper means. But if you do, you better be able to accept the outcome of your decision to not follow them
Yep, I agree.
There is a line of where it is appropriate to disobey an order, per se, and that is when it does come to an obvious safety issue, such as the sagging roof, floor, etc. This is part of training and how we are all considered "safety officers" for things. In such issues the concern should be addressed to the IC, because they can't see the conditions. However, there may be valid concer to operate as ordered because of a life safety threat of people trapped etc. So yes, you are right that there are times to question an order, but if still ordered to go and you refused, you should be ready to accept the outcome......chances are things would side with the refusal.
Big difference than saying it is OK to refuse an order because you don't want to work with a particular person, or you're scared, or you just don't want to do the task.
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Permalink Reply by Paul Montpetit on
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If he passes the physical and passes FFI and he can function then go ahead...but if he is this bad then I don't see how he could pass......
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Permalink Reply by Damo on
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We can't all be paid fire fighters John, that can perform every task on the fire scene. You see us volunteers we crawl out of bed at 4 in the morning trot our tired asses down to the fire scene, get the ladies to crack open the marshmellows and stand around chatting about the latest goings on from our soap operas. That is the reason all 150 plus members of my dept joined just to be social and once in a while we don a tee shirt that says fire fighter.
Or maybe because we don't have a paid fire service in our area and a bunch of people want to do something good. So, whatever time and effort these people give is good enough to get us through what we need to do. We can't call ahead and say "hey fire, we are only vollies please don't be so hot, so we can have it easy and go back to the station and socialise a bit more." You have been in the service long enough, so show a bit of respect for people that will put their lives on the line just like you paid guys.
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