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Football Referees, Internet Etiquette, and Censorship
This is the time of year when many of us enjoy watching football, either live or on TV. So many of us are addicted that ESPN Classic and the NFL Channel re-run some classic and not-so-classic games for those of us that can’t get enough just watching on Saturday, Sunday, Monday night, Thursday night, and now Friday night. If you watch football long enough, one thing stands out. The officiating is often less than stellar. One officiating mistake is so common that fans and sportscasters talk about it almost every week. That mistake is the retaliation penalty. Retaliation penalties occur when a player on one team takes a cheap shot, usually after the whistle. The referees seem to always turn a blind eye. However, as soon as a player from the other team retaliates, the yellow hankies rain down and the retaliator’s team takes the 15-yard penalty…unfairly, of course. There is no red challenge flag, no recourse, and no fairness involved in that decision. It’s arbitrary, bogus, final…and WRONG. The officials are supposed to be the arbiters of rule enforcement and fairness. Enforcing the rules one-sidedly is anything but fair. The “I didn’t see it” excuse doesn’t fly, either. The officials aren’t doing their job if they only see one side’s rule violations.
There are some things that have happened on FFN recently with strong parallels to this, and they are just as bogus and wrong. For example, some FFN members have learned how to manipulate the system to get away with being blatantly rude and unfair. Here’s how you do it. You post a discussion on a topic that is controversial, inane, or completely bogus, and it generates quite a few responses. The discussion goes on for a while, and it generates some heat. Some of the responses are silly, horribly misspelled, unprofessional, or even offensive. Then someone ventures an opinion about what they see as mistakes, unprofessionalism, or offensiveness in your post, and you throw the retaliation flag. How do you throw the retaliation flag? You can work the system in at least three ways.
1) Use the “moderate comments” feature to block comments that you don’t like. This feature should be called the “Censorship” feature, because that’s exactly what it does – it lets you censor comments. In other words, it lets you interfere with other people’s freedom of speech. Rarely is censorship a good thing. The United States – where this site is hosted – was founded primarily on all of us having freedom of speech. When you block comments because you don’t like them, you’re violating the basic American tenet of fairness – just like football referees.
2) You can be stealthily rude. It’s easy. When you don’t like the comment trend in your thread, post a comment slamming one or more of the people that posted something you don’t like or that took the comments in a direction you don’t like, then use the “Close Comments” feature. You can add rudeness atop rudeness…when people message you privately questioning your thread closure, you open comments for 8 seconds, post a public slam at the people that questioned you, then immediately close the post again. Yes, Matilda, there are firefighters are that rude to other firefighters. The referee in this one uses his power to throw the flag over and over again. Some of those referees are naïve enough to think that they’ll get away with it.
3) You can complain to the Web Chief. If you complain, there’s a chance that he’ll selectively censor the posts you don’t like, so that you can avoid feeling directly responsible. That’s happened quite a bit. The problem – the original posts that someone else felt was rude, unprofessional, or bogus don’t always get censored unless enough of us can embarrass the original poster into removing the post. Sometimes this is done with sarcasm. The Web Chief doesn’t like sarcasm – he’s said so to some of my FFN friends when explaining why he nuked some of their replies. Sarcasm – whatever you think of it – is an entrenched part of American firefighting culture. Sit around and firehouse kitchen table for more than 15 minutes, let someone bring up something that is silly, rude, bogus, or unprofessional, and guess what’s going to happen, sports fans??? Letting the instigator get away with his/her violation while flagging those who retaliate with sarcasm because you don't like it is an abuse of power, just as the referee's retaliation flags are.
Sometimes the fans will use irony to point out the referees biases. For example, why do the most illiterate-sounding posters complain about the ”spelling and grammar police”? Are we going to start hearing how some of us don’t like irony next? That would be ironic.
Letting the instigator go unpunished sets a very bad precedent, because it rewards and encourages additional bad behavior.
I’ve had personal insults thrown at me on FFN because another firefighter disagreed with me. In response, I didn’t close the thread, I didn’t moderate the comments, and I didn’t whine to the Web Chief. I did call the posters out for what they said, though. My FFN friends and I will continue to do so. Speaking out against things that are unfair is an American – and American firefighting – tradition. That is one of our good traditions. If you’re going to post on a public forum, you need to be responsible enough to accept that not everyone views the world exactly as you do, and that it’s OK for other firefighters to disagree, to use sarcasm, or to call you on it. It is not OK to stifle their dissent. Period.
There are some things that have happened on FFN recently with strong parallels to this, and they are just as bogus and wrong. For example, some FFN members have learned how to manipulate the system to get away with being blatantly rude and unfair. Here’s how you do it. You post a discussion on a topic that is controversial, inane, or completely bogus, and it generates quite a few responses. The discussion goes on for a while, and it generates some heat. Some of the responses are silly, horribly misspelled, unprofessional, or even offensive. Then someone ventures an opinion about what they see as mistakes, unprofessionalism, or offensiveness in your post, and you throw the retaliation flag. How do you throw the retaliation flag? You can work the system in at least three ways.
1) Use the “moderate comments” feature to block comments that you don’t like. This feature should be called the “Censorship” feature, because that’s exactly what it does – it lets you censor comments. In other words, it lets you interfere with other people’s freedom of speech. Rarely is censorship a good thing. The United States – where this site is hosted – was founded primarily on all of us having freedom of speech. When you block comments because you don’t like them, you’re violating the basic American tenet of fairness – just like football referees.
2) You can be stealthily rude. It’s easy. When you don’t like the comment trend in your thread, post a comment slamming one or more of the people that posted something you don’t like or that took the comments in a direction you don’t like, then use the “Close Comments” feature. You can add rudeness atop rudeness…when people message you privately questioning your thread closure, you open comments for 8 seconds, post a public slam at the people that questioned you, then immediately close the post again. Yes, Matilda, there are firefighters are that rude to other firefighters. The referee in this one uses his power to throw the flag over and over again. Some of those referees are naïve enough to think that they’ll get away with it.
3) You can complain to the Web Chief. If you complain, there’s a chance that he’ll selectively censor the posts you don’t like, so that you can avoid feeling directly responsible. That’s happened quite a bit. The problem – the original posts that someone else felt was rude, unprofessional, or bogus don’t always get censored unless enough of us can embarrass the original poster into removing the post. Sometimes this is done with sarcasm. The Web Chief doesn’t like sarcasm – he’s said so to some of my FFN friends when explaining why he nuked some of their replies. Sarcasm – whatever you think of it – is an entrenched part of American firefighting culture. Sit around and firehouse kitchen table for more than 15 minutes, let someone bring up something that is silly, rude, bogus, or unprofessional, and guess what’s going to happen, sports fans??? Letting the instigator get away with his/her violation while flagging those who retaliate with sarcasm because you don't like it is an abuse of power, just as the referee's retaliation flags are.
Sometimes the fans will use irony to point out the referees biases. For example, why do the most illiterate-sounding posters complain about the ”spelling and grammar police”? Are we going to start hearing how some of us don’t like irony next? That would be ironic.
Letting the instigator go unpunished sets a very bad precedent, because it rewards and encourages additional bad behavior.
I’ve had personal insults thrown at me on FFN because another firefighter disagreed with me. In response, I didn’t close the thread, I didn’t moderate the comments, and I didn’t whine to the Web Chief. I did call the posters out for what they said, though. My FFN friends and I will continue to do so. Speaking out against things that are unfair is an American – and American firefighting – tradition. That is one of our good traditions. If you’re going to post on a public forum, you need to be responsible enough to accept that not everyone views the world exactly as you do, and that it’s OK for other firefighters to disagree, to use sarcasm, or to call you on it. It is not OK to stifle their dissent. Period.
Replies are closed for this discussion.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Melissa on
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Honestly, I think you all sound like a bunch of little kids bickering. Why does everyone have to take offense at everything? Obviously, someone is going to offend someone else when they make a joke or comment, while others are going to laugh. That's life! Grow up people!!!!
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Permalink Reply by Joe Stoltz on
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Excellent post, Ben. We'll need to to work on the Official Forum SOPs. Or would that be SOGs? Best practices?
The biggest problem is when people attack the poster. It's OK to "attack" (disagree with) the poster's POSITION or opinion, in a ploite fashion; but when a member is attacked personally that's crossing over the line.
Melissa, it's not bickering, it's called venting - a very important tactic in firefighting and firefighting forums. -
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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on
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Wow!
I thought I was the only cynical one.
Excellent post, Ben. I don't know how much life it has, but at least a few of us saw it.
What I see here is that this website is being used more as a "message board" than a discussion site. If that's not the case, then why are many who come here getting all up in arms and indignant when some of us press them for more details?
Example: the paid vs. vollie thing. You know as well as I do that as soon as a volunteer gets pissed off because a career guy didn't salute them, they go on the boards and posts a "he isn't any better than I am" thread. Web Chief has made it very clear that he will pull down these threads because they always go bad and most of the time, they do, because Bucky hasn't got the smarts or the common sense to know when to hit back and when to cover up.
What I would suggest to the Web Chief is to let those types of threads run their course. Let it die out on its own. At some point, the thread will go silent. And every now and then, it may come back to life. No; check that. No one does a search before they start their thread, so we will have never before seen threads on paid vs. vollie.
Sarcasm is a sticky wicket. If it is obvious sarcasm, I don't think Dave would cut it. The more obscure sarcastic remarks may get editted, because only a very few of us with a high brow would get it.
You have to understand that, to build a membership, you have to almost be "all inclusive". You have to be willing to open it to just about anything. And if you do that, you get some that are not the right fit. Those are the ones you eventually weed out or they will weed themselves out and problem solved.
I can tell you this: when I see bad information being given, you can bet I'm going to speak up as I did about PPV as an assault tactic or drinking and responding, among others and if that gets me into trouble, then so much for that.
We have to take care of the ones who come here to learn. We must teach them, because they want to learn.
And the ones who simply want to come here, part the sea and proclaim to the world that "I am an idiot with an outlet for my stupidity" and argue the merits of "dipping, sipping and tipping" can have his say, but should be prepared for rebuttals.
And I will go on record again as saying that the power of deleting replies should only be extended to a person's home page and not in the public forums. If you are going to be foolish enough to post something stupid, then you should have to face the music.
And as long as a poster doesn't get personal or sexual, then nothing should be out of bounds.
I find it more offensive that people come here and shamelessly sell their crap than a post from Captain America pissed off because his cape is smaller than the career guy's.
Good points, Ben.
TCSS.
Art -
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Polite, not ploite... LOL... that's what happens when I'm typing covertly at work. :o)
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Permalink Reply by Firefighter Nation WebChief on
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All
If you see a problem, report it. There is a fine line between 'sarcasm' and personal attacks back for no reason.
Respect each other, and you'll get it back.
As Joe notes below....when you attack a user's position that is one thing...when you wrap it in with attacking them personally (like calling them an idiot, etc. over their position), you cross the line.
And as Art points out, you're not going to see us delete sarcasm if its to make a point...as long as you're not being an egotistical ass about it -- which half the time posts are removed IS the case. It's someone who can't make their point without telling the other person how much of a moron they are for having their opinion. Yes, I will continue to delete the whole paid v. volunteer crap right away mostly because it isn't worth moderating until it crosses a line -- and once it does the attacks come fast and furious and it just spirals.
There is no way (yet, unfortunately) to limit people from deleting comments to forums they post. I wish there were and hopefully at some point there will be.
This thread is closed. As I always say here (and in my past) ... discuss topics, not the forums or each other. And report problems (it's not whining, it's helping us moderate the site, so reeelax).
There are thousands of discussions here, the fact is there are problems on only a fraction of them. -
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