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Who should be in charge of the apparatus while responding to the scene?
This topic comes up when I am assigned to engineer. I believe that the engineer should have the say what goes on inside the cab while the vehicle is in motion. My reason is if your involve in a wreck who is going to be sited. In a case that happen in a county next to mine a quint responding code 3 T-Boned a car a killed the occupants inside. The driver tried in court for the deaths, and the local media covered the story only on the driver. My understanding is that the officer riding in the appropriate seat was not charged or any actions taken. Only internal. With this accident speed was a factor and responding to a general alarm drop. Looking for opinions on this and if some dept's have SOG's on the topic.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Joey Carrow on
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I teach in my Evoc class that the engineer is responsible for the truck, Crew, Pedestrians, other cars, and everything else around them for this very reason. It is State law in Maine that if an accident occurs because of the apparatus the Driver is held resposible Not the officer or anyone else in the truck. As a matter of fact you can actually, be pulled over for speeding in an apparatus while going to a call if the officer feels you are endangering the life of others.
I Also personally train officers in the class that you need to keep an eye on your engineer and if you think he is driving dangerously make him/her pull over and change engineers or drive yourself.
Like to hear your thoughts
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Permalink Reply by paul michael komandt on
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I FEEL THE OPERATOR SHOLD BE IN CHARGE OF THE SAFE AND EFFICIENT OPERATION OF THE APPARATUS TO AND FROM THE SCENE. AS FOR THE OTHER SITUATIONS INSIDE THE CAB THE OFFICER HAS THE SAY. MY DEPARTMENT DOES NOT HAVE ASSIGNED SEATING POSITIONS AS WE ARE VOLUNTEER (THE PERSON IN THE OFFICERS SEAT IS CONSIDERED THE COMPANY OFFICER). THIS MEANING THE "OFFICER" SHOULD BE SURE TO ASSIGN TASKS TO THE CREW BEFORE THEY GET TO THE SCENE. AS FOR SAFETY ISSUES OUR S.O.P. STATES THAT ALL PERSONNEL WILL BE FULLY BUNKERED, SEATED, GIVE THEIR PASSPORTS TO THE OFFICER, AND BELTED BEFORE THE APPARATUS IS MOVED FROM THE STATION, THIS IS ON BOTH OPERATOR AND "OFFICER".
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Permalink Reply by Steve on
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We are getting away from the point, you as the apparatus driver are responsible for clearing you intersections which means coming to a complete stop or a speed at which you can stop in the event of another vehicle coming to the intersection. From what I understand the sensor didnt change the light so you were going to run the light without stopping. At no point is that acceptable, yes your officer should have said "hey, the light is red, stop idiot" But the engine company officer is responsible for a lot of things the last thing he should have to worry about is wether or not his driver is being wreckless. Yes there was the issue of him getting dressed while enroute, but on the same token you as the driver should not have even released the brake until you were sure that everyone was seated and belted. Even if your officer told you to do so you were still liable for anything that happened. The best response in that situation is "Sir, I cannot move the apparatus until everyone is belted in." Even if he takes it up the chain of command you aren't in the wrong because you would be doing what's in the best interest of the safety of your crew. Bottom line, yes for MOST and I say most cautiously the Driver/Operator should be in control of whats happening prior to and during the response. Check your adrenaline, slow down, arrive safely. You do no one any good if you never get there.
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Permalink Reply by Bob Lindsay on
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With out a doubt the truck officer is incharge and responsible for everything that goes on. That is why he is held liable in a traffic accident
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Permalink Reply by Drew Tenhundfeld on
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Chief, the company consist of a Lt., and 2 roughnecks. The officer oversees the route of travel and all radio traffic. They also start the command system if first on scene. The previous officer is the one that I butted heads with, until I stopped while enroute to make them sit back so I can have full view out that side. Seatbelts with him/her is another issue with them and the dept. The officer that I am with now, we have an understanding while the truck is in motion. Working very well with this officer.
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Permalink Reply by John Malcom on
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What? Look at all the CASE LAW, THE PERSON DRIVING IS HELD RESPONSIBLE. Officer my ass.
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Permalink Reply by Bob on
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I will agree that the driver is going to be on the hook if involved in a wreck. However the Chief may be sitting right beside him or her in court. Civil Liability is a big issue. The Chief is responsible for the entire department which includes selecting who may or may not operate equipment.
Our department relies on the first on scene officer to make the determination as to whether responding apparatus should downgrade to a non-emergency response. I realize that in some instances departments may not be able to do this.
Something that is beginning to happen in our County is a priority dispatch. If you are dispatched with a priority 1 its an emergency response where a priority 2 is non-emergency.
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The guy who is driving has the ultimate call in what happen in the rig while on the way to a scene not the passenger. Even if it is a superior officer the driver still has the wheel and if they want to write up the driver after let them
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Permalink Reply by Mike on
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I think the A/O should be in charge of the apparatus. That's how we do it here. In a lot of departments here, the A/O is in charge when the Capt or Lt is out because being an A/O involves a lot of responsibility and if you can handle that you can supervise your fellow firefighters!
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Permalink Reply by paula beckham on
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to me its the driver simple and clear cut
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Permalink Reply by Mike Lintz on
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First i have noticed that this accident was due to the sensirs not changing and i have only one thing to say to that.... They are a great concept but cannot be relied on. the driver still has a responiblity to get the crew their safely and without injuring the public. If this means coming to a complete stop then so be it. We had a incident just like this in ohio the driver was held responsible by a court of law and will never be a firefighter again because he went through a intersection at 50 + MPH thinking the sensor would change. He was a good friend of mine but deserved what he got..
Second the officer may be incharge of everything on that shift but when it comes to MY crew when I am driving he has no control of how i drive. Plain and simple if my officer tells me to blow an intersection i will come to a complete stop if i feel it is the safest way to get me and my crew there and i will tell him off. I have been backed up by cheifs for doing so. The way i look at it is if i'm the engineer on that rig then everything in it, Be that tools or crew are MY responsibilty when we are enroute to a call plain and simple..
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Permalink Reply by Pete Methner on
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hey Mike
One Question for you..... what if the engineer drives like a maniack and blows stop signs and stop lights.... I agree it is your licence and you must protect that as well.... but if the officer doesnt have ultimate control of the vehicle... how will his crew perform for him at the scene. Im not saying all officers are competent either.... but neither are engineers.....
recently i have witnessed a few accidents from drivers who wernt going fast.... and were obeying the law... were involved in accidents... just because you posess the right licence classification.... doesnt mean you can drive in emergency conditions...
stay safe
Pete
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