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When will the fire service learn to think about risk and loss potential
This discussion is also published in another section of this forum but I felt is was important enough to have wider input for firefighters and officers.
The fire service needs to stop risking lives for property that can be replaced.
Monday morning quarterbacks: Please carefully review the video at the following links. Make a note of your observations of safety issues that you see:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLl1XM6C--g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm1WQbf8Xq0
Ask these questions at your next training session:
What were the risks to personnel and equipment?
What safety violations do you observe?
What actions would you have taken differently as a company officer and as the incident commander?
Lets start the list here in your replies.
Remember: The efforts being exerted by the firefighters to ventilate where certainly great and they probably thought that they were doing a good job.
Where were the incident commanders on this incident?
Where was the safety officer?
What was the company officer thinking?
Should these leaders ever be in charge of another incident until they have been retrained in the importance of safety for their personnel?
The fire service must compare what the risks to the lives of these firefighters were to the possible benefits of the actions they were taking. Firefighter safety must be the most important function for every company officer and every incident commander.
When will we learn???
Where are our command officers?
Where are our safety officers?
Where are our training officers?
Why are the scenes in this video not unusual?
Could they have been taken at your last incident?
What will every department learn from these videos?
Can these videos help saves the lives of other firefighters or are we doomed to continue depending upon our own dumb luck?
The fire service needs to stop risking lives for property that can be replaced.
Monday morning quarterbacks: Please carefully review the video at the following links. Make a note of your observations of safety issues that you see:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLl1XM6C--g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm1WQbf8Xq0
Ask these questions at your next training session:
What were the risks to personnel and equipment?
What safety violations do you observe?
What actions would you have taken differently as a company officer and as the incident commander?
Lets start the list here in your replies.
Remember: The efforts being exerted by the firefighters to ventilate where certainly great and they probably thought that they were doing a good job.
Where were the incident commanders on this incident?
Where was the safety officer?
What was the company officer thinking?
Should these leaders ever be in charge of another incident until they have been retrained in the importance of safety for their personnel?
The fire service must compare what the risks to the lives of these firefighters were to the possible benefits of the actions they were taking. Firefighter safety must be the most important function for every company officer and every incident commander.
When will we learn???
Where are our command officers?
Where are our safety officers?
Where are our training officers?
Why are the scenes in this video not unusual?
Could they have been taken at your last incident?
What will every department learn from these videos?
Can these videos help saves the lives of other firefighters or are we doomed to continue depending upon our own dumb luck?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Josh on
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First off everyone knows that saftey is priority. Here is where I stand on this subject. Everyone who every thought about or has became a firefighter knows it is a dangerous JOB whether career or volunteer. People make choices some bad some good, but it all adds up to either being a good firefighter or a chickenshit fireman that acts to scared to do his job. I have seen countless times where firefighters are to afraid to do their JOB and it shows.
Here is an example: A small room in contents fire simple bread and butter operation they the unnamed see thick black smoke from the door so what do they do. Hit the fire from the front door and push it into the adjacent room. So it started off as a small fire and then turned out to be a total loss. Why because they were to afraid of the black smoke they thought it would flash.
Good training and expierance is how we save lives in the FD not just saying well they can build another house fuck it. Aggressive firefighting saves lives Stupidity kills firemen.
My whole complaint in this is that these great article writers in fire engineering and other fire department books always talk about risk management why not to go into fires but we have to remember that we got into this knowing that it is dangerous. This job is the most dangerous job in the world but if we stop going into fires to do it then what do we as firemen become you guessed it just EMTS practice saftey and go for the throat of the fire, but dont be afraid. If you are afraid to do your job go join the peace corps. Pass on your knowledge to other firemen and keep a tradition going.
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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on
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You can be aggressive without being ignorant, stupid and dead.
Firefighters dying for stupid reasons isn't a tradition; it's a goddam tragedy.
And you cannot talk about risking lives over lightweight construction held together by glue, furnished with plastics and powered by poly vinyl chloride and say "everyone knows that safety is priority".
Risk vs. Benefit whether you like it or not is NOT going to run the firefighters out of business.
You take what it will give you.
In your mind, what is an acceptable body count?
How many lives is a small building worth?
How many more dead firefighters do we need to pave that road to tradition?
You might think that it's heroic.
I have a different adjective for it.
Art
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Back in the early '90s, we lost an asst. chief of an area fire department. It was in the "finest tradition"- an LODD.
How did it happen? He was standing in the collapse zone!
It was a cinder block-constructed furniture warehouse; a fire set by an employee to cover up employee thefts. Worth it to lose an AC? Absolutely not! Avoidable? You bet it was!
I can think of only ONE time when it is an acceptable risk to risk EVERYTHING and you all KNOW what that is.
I went to his funeral like many other firefighters did in the area. The procession stretched for over a mile.
His widow spoke at his funeral. Do you know what she told us? She said "it could happen to any one of YOU"! She did not challenge us to learn from the circumstances surrounding his death. She expected some of us to meet the SAME FATE. Uh; excuse me, but I don't think so.
Knowing the collapse zone, recognizing bow truss construction and the signs of collapse were just a few of the things that I learned early on as a firefighter.
No; many of us were going to take his death and learn from it, with the idea that the "same thing" wasn't going to happen to us. To this day, no one else in this area has died from a building collapse.
Some things are predictable. Unfortunately, human behavior, in some cases, is NOT predictable. How we react in a given situation will vary from individual to individual. It takes strong leadership to control that individualism.
We cannot continue to do the same things and expect or predict different outcomes.
As a chief officer, we are charged with the duty of getting everyone home alive. We have to find new ways to beat Murphy's Law and we have to take Luck out of the equation.
As much as we'd like to think that we are invincible, we are still very VULNERABLE!
And as officers, we have to protect our people every time the tones drop, whether they like it or not.
Safe rather than sorry! I will gladly apologize to my firefighters for not letting them take an unnecessary risk, so that I won't have to apologize to their family for letting them.
Yes; buildings and their contents can be replaced.
Firefighters are irreplaceable. Period.
Art
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Permalink Reply by Don Smith on
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I can't access YouTube form here. As far as the rest, I don't have much experience, but I think people have to understand what we're here to do. If there's a way to do it that would be rescue people and save their stuff. These things are jobs to us, but it's a major disaster to the people involved
Obviously we have to adopt best practices techniques, but often even that isn't enough. All the equipment and training hasn't lowered LODD rates. It has, however, given a certain class of people an excuse not to do their most basic job.
Structural firefighting is dangerous. It will be as long as people actually enter burning structures.
As they say, "If the job was easy a cop would be doing it."
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Permalink Reply by Dogg32 on
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My 2 cents> I agree this is a dangerous job, and that we need to be aggressive to do it right. But the number of guys on the roof without any SCBAs is not a good thing. We all take risk, and we need to. But why not minimise those risk using the tools that are available to us?
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Which is why I have reviewed the videos, but will not comment on them.
My remarks are in general and my comments to this thread will be in that regard.
However; I am NOT fond of video getting out that shows a total lack of regard for safe practices. I am NOT a fan of departments selling their video to buffs and such for the sheer excitement value that big fire brings.
When I see someone who is not fully protected for the task at hand, that is not bravery; it's stupidity.
Pure and simple.
There is a reason why there are snaps and zippers on a coat. There is a reason for a visor on a helmet. There is a reason for a chin strap on a helmet. Gloves belong on the hands; not bundled into a Milwaukee strap.
Christ; I could go on and on, but I won't.
Stupid hurts.
Art
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Permalink Reply by Ron Graner on
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Thanks for taking the time to respond to the above. Just for the record, I have been there and done that many times over. I spent the first 26 years of my 45 year career in a large class 1 city department in the northeast with many of the same structures. When I was a Lt. my company averaged 5 working fires a night in an urban renewal area. As fire chief of an urban department in the NE and in two departments in the south we certainly had the same types of structures many times over. And yes we made the same mistakes shown on these videos many times over but it is not right to continue doing so.
The leadership of the fire service is supposed to learn from past mistakes. Unfortunately there are still many in the fire service who think that risking lives for property is the only way to operate. I have close friends who are named on the fallen firefighter’s memorial and as beautiful as it is, it is not a good place to visit to see more names being added.
The progressive leadership of the fire service, labor and management, has been working hard for many years to get the message of safety in all operations out to our profession. Unfortunately some folks never hear the message. The only thing they do hear is Amazing Grace being played at the services for fallen firefighters.
As a young firefighter you have all of the sprit and aggressiveness that every company officer and commander would want and the fire service always will need on scene. I would have welcomed having you in any company that I was in. I also hope that you keep supporting women in the fire service. You will meet many of the real pros in our profession in that great organization that you can learn much from.
As I mentioned above, the folks on the roof were doing what they thought was a great job. The issue in the discussion is the job being done by those who are responsible for their lives. It does not take a Monday morning quarterback to see the many safety issues that the IC, the safety officer and yes the company officer should have seen and acted upon in the interest of safety for the crews who were following orders.
As a firefighter, I ask you to please think about construction the next time you look at a building. Think about the roof structure, the decking, the open spaces for heat and fire travel. Has the flat roof been built with wood planking but was the stronger planking been replaced, with chipboard that dissolves in the heat of a fire. What is your way in, or on, and what is your way out, or off? No firefighter can go in blind and no firefighter should assume that others are seeing the hazards that may cost them their lives.
Stay safe
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Permalink Reply by Moose on
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Oh boy, my blood boils when I read stupid shit like I just read...(sorry for the language but I have had just about enough of the "Hero" bullshit)
First off Josh, I lost complete interest in what you were saying as soon as I read "It was a simple Bread and Butter Job"...Bro, thats the worst way to think about firefighting. I dont give a flying shit if its a garbage pail burning, NOTHING is "Routine" or "Bread and Butter". Every firefighter must see the whole picture and treat EVERY call as a serious one, and use ALL of the safety precautions necessary in order for EVERYONE to go home. How do you know that "chicken Shit" (as you so brainlessly called your brother firefighter) firefighter didnt see something you didnt? How do you know for FACT, that that "simple" room and contents fire wasnt going to blow up in your ignorant face?
Art, brother I have read a few of your posts here and let me tell you what, I would go into ANY fire with you and would be proud to have you by my side.
It really shocks me to this day that someone would watch a video like these, or any other video for that matter and have the first thing come to their minds be "lets not bash this dept." First, I saw a few idiots trying to be "heros" without their full PPE on, for what? To save an old building from burning again a few days later? People, its really simple, we are not "bashing" each other, we are watching what happens and "critiquing" each other and if you cant take constructive criticism this isnt the job for you. We need to learn from each other, we need to practice our skills, and above all, we need to be brave enough to admit when we did something wrong (if your still alive) and share it with others so they will not make the same mistakes. Who in their right minds would go on a roof like the one in the video without full PPE???? Or, I correct myself here, who would go on ANY BURNING BUILDING without FULL PPE?? How many times have we heard of the roof burning through and firefighters falling to their deaths? Should they have cut the vent hole in between them and their only exit? Or did the roof burn through? If it burned through, how come the officer on the roof couldnt see the impending signs of this burn through like sagging roof, spongy feeling, bubbling tar, etc???
Im tired of people using the same excuse of "Monday Morning Quarterback" to cover up on mistakes that should be teaching everyone a lesson.
Everyone needs to pay more attention to the LODD statistics and than seriously give consideration to ever using the excuse of "Stop Monday Morning Quarterbacking" ever again. Im not here to watch out for the "feelings" of my brothers and sisters, Im here to watch out for their LIVES...and if offering a critique on fire scene pictures and videos is one way to do it than so be it. Id rather offend a few firefighters who cant admit their wrong and learn from their situation rather than by attending yet another fire service funeral.
I did not mean to rip into anyone, im just frustrated as all hell and tired of all of the excuses.
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Hey, cool; I'm getting quoted.
Anyway, what I was thinking and to add more to the discussion, my question is this:
If we don't want to appear to be throwing mudballs at departments who get their videos displayed on the Internet, replete with derry doo and some guffaws, when do we see the whole picture?
I mean, if all's that we have is 30 seconds worth of clip, how can we make sweeping comments about a department's SOGs? Answer is that we can't do that, but we CAN draw some assumptions from the 30 second clip and especially if there are some glaring examples of errors. Couple that with an account of same incident, whether it be from a reliable source or not and what have we got?
If we "wait" until all of the "facts" are in, how quiet would these discussions be? If someone doesn't make the leap to conclusion to get a discussion going, then how can we learn? We are basically spit balling ideas, theories and yes, for some, they believe that they have the hard evidence to skewer the affected fire department. I quit asking along time ago about the tactics of the East Coast metropolitan firefighters. They are a breed of their own.
But the point that I am trying to make is when you look at the video, what we see are not smoke and mirrors. It is not an illusion. There are some safety breaches. And in this department, if a chief officer writes charges on any one of those who violated SOGs, the union would be right there to defend them. So, yes; in a word, safety can be compromised and it can also be legislated through a bargaining unit. I don't agree with it, but that's reality. What is troubling is; if SCBAs were not provided or each member did not have their own personal mask, that too would be grounds for a grievance. But it's doubtful that they will complain about air quality if they weren't wearing one. And twenty years from now when they are COPD? Well, the benefits will start and what wasn't a "big deal" at the time has turned into a rather expensive retirement.
I will finish with this: we don't have to think for someone; we just have to get them to LISTEN to and DO what they are told to do. And not everything in the fire service is a personal choice or a protected right under an agreement. Common sense should still prevail.
Art
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Permalink Reply by Joe Stoltz on
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I agree with Siren - I would like to hear from the FFs themselves what happened. Were there radios with the roof men? Was there a "senior firefighter" working instead of a company officer that day? Boston has always been highly regarded for their ladder work. This job just wasn't one of their better performances.
We all have had bad days, all of us. I just have to close my eyes to relive some of the stupid stunts I've pulled. You can say what you want, but there are times that nothing seems to go right. These guys happened to have their picture taken at an incident that they would just as soon forget.
I view these videos in much the same way as I read the NIOSH LODD reports. Instead of jumping out of my chair and screaming "I DON'T BELIEVE HE DID THAT" I say "That could have been me that died" and "what can we learn to prevent this from ever happening again?"
The videos are a plus because pictures are worth much more than words. And because no one got hurt.
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Permalink Reply by Mary Ellen Shea on
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The "burning" question regarding this video is, and I've watched it in varying stages of horror and disbelief, where are the SCBA's? Why are half the guys without helmets? WHY are they standing on a hot zone just looking at each other...and what the HELL is up with that jump from the aerial ladder to the next roof????? 12 inches stood between that guy making the roof jump and falling multiple stories to a bad ending.
I literally couldn't watch it all the way through the first time because the first thought I had after 45 seconds was, "I'm not going to sit here and watch these guys fall through a roof collapse to their deaths".
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Look, you all make valid points, but you are still overlooking an important one...I dont care what circumstances there might have been that we did not see or hear about, ABSOLUTELY NO circumstance could warrant them to NOT wear their full PPE, no excuse, no "Hidden" fact that we werent privy to in the video, so please stop making excuses for our brothers who CHOSE not to wear full PPE. There is no excuse today, you are either wearing it when you get off the rig or you dont go into the IDLH atmosphere...PERIOD...and the officer in charge should have said something to that effect. I dont care if you fight 4-5 workers per shift or 4-5 workers per year, fire still kills you without prejudice, and your skin does not take on any special properties to repel flames...you still die. I wasnt commenting on their tactics or strategies...30 seconds isnt enough to determine what they were and if they were effective enough...I was pointing out the OBVIOUS, and would have done so regardless if they were Bostons Bravest, Chicagos Bravest, or even FDNY...there is no excuse to not have full PPE on.
You were right about me calling my brothers idiots and I do apologise, but I have been dealing with a lot in regards to LODD and funerals and Im am frustrated to sit down and watch a video, or read a newspaper, or article in a magazine, or see a news broadcast where there are STILL stupid, brainless, POINTLESS, AVOIDABLE mistakes being made that seriously injure or kill one of our brothers or sisters. It needs to be addressed and fixed ASAP, without excuses. And yes sister you were making excuses for them. Lets put it this way, you are Chief of your department, you respond to a structure fire and see your vent crew ascending the ladder with only one out of the 4 being in total PPE. What would you do? What would you say? Would you just let them go saying "Oh, there has to be some reason why they arent dressed, Ill find out later."
I did not mean to offend anyone and I apologise If I did but I take this seriously. SOMEONE needs to speak out for safety issues and address them instead of sitting complacent and hope they disapear.
I only look out for my fellow firefighter to make sure we all really do GO HOME.
Moose
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