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STUPID
Well here it is, and I would love to hear what everyone thinks of this. Let me set the scenario.
A suppression team enters a structure ahead of the truck company and begins an attack. Half way down a hallway there is fire rolling over the head of an open doorway. The nozzleman hits the ceiling in the hall then advances the line to the doorway where he can see the seat of the fire and begins to knock it down from the hall. Once it is managed, he enters the doorway, places the nozzle to straight stream, does a few circles on the ceiling and proceeds to sweep the walls of the room looking for a window to vent from. Once he finds the window he is able to knock it out with the stream and begins the vent process.
The man on the nozzle happens to be a friend of mine and the person who told the story. This was in fact backed up by unsolicited accounts from others that were there. The problem is that there was also a Captain present at the burn and he dressed down the nozzleman for his actions.
His point was that the nozzleman should not have hit the ceiling in the hallway, nor should he have fought the fire from the hall. This Captain said that he should have gone directly into the room and up on the fire to put it out with as little water as possible. Captain X also stated that using the stream to find a window was stupid and said that he had never heard of that.
The actions of the nozzleman seemed textbook enough to me, (I'm speaking as a senior fireman with an awful lot of experience), and the comments from the young Captain seem like the type of advice to get you killed. I would love to hear from everyone, especially the older veterans on what you think of this.
I've added this.... There was an unlimited water supply. They were on a good hydrant with a large main and 1500 gal. on the truck. There is a twist to this that will make it better, (or worse), but I'll keep it close to my vest for a little while.
A suppression team enters a structure ahead of the truck company and begins an attack. Half way down a hallway there is fire rolling over the head of an open doorway. The nozzleman hits the ceiling in the hall then advances the line to the doorway where he can see the seat of the fire and begins to knock it down from the hall. Once it is managed, he enters the doorway, places the nozzle to straight stream, does a few circles on the ceiling and proceeds to sweep the walls of the room looking for a window to vent from. Once he finds the window he is able to knock it out with the stream and begins the vent process.
The man on the nozzle happens to be a friend of mine and the person who told the story. This was in fact backed up by unsolicited accounts from others that were there. The problem is that there was also a Captain present at the burn and he dressed down the nozzleman for his actions.
His point was that the nozzleman should not have hit the ceiling in the hallway, nor should he have fought the fire from the hall. This Captain said that he should have gone directly into the room and up on the fire to put it out with as little water as possible. Captain X also stated that using the stream to find a window was stupid and said that he had never heard of that.
The actions of the nozzleman seemed textbook enough to me, (I'm speaking as a senior fireman with an awful lot of experience), and the comments from the young Captain seem like the type of advice to get you killed. I would love to hear from everyone, especially the older veterans on what you think of this.
I've added this.... There was an unlimited water supply. They were on a good hydrant with a large main and 1500 gal. on the truck. There is a twist to this that will make it better, (or worse), but I'll keep it close to my vest for a little while.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by ENGINECREW CAPT. aka Pres.FHMC on
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We use basically the same principle as you describe,with a few variations due to manpower constraints,but that is the "Ideal" sop.But like you stated so wisely,not 100%
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Permalink Reply by isaac on
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captain X must not be a very good captain so there for where ever he is stationed at the chief should pull his rank from him.....on our department my captains tells us to do whatever we can to avoid flashovers and to stay safe and alive we decide what to do and if we did something wrong our captain would say just carefull and he would point out what we did wrong like for example we go in a burning building with out a helment he would say next time wear ur helment.anyways the way the nozzleman did was the only way to prevent flashover .good practice of saftey, life, preserve
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NEXT TIME ?????? We have a Safety Officer who makes sure we are fully geared up when we go in.Why would you even think of going in with out a helmet to begin with?Sorry but I hadda add that.
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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on
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Allen; if that was a par 4, you just eagled it!
Art
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Permalink Reply by Jim Seargent on
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Refer to my post of a day ago, (in total).......Just as a point of clarification, there was no vent team available. This was a fast attack by the 1st in engine with the truck on the road.............
I try, as do many of you obvoiusly, to be as correct with my language as possible. In the afforementioned post, never did I say that there was no vent team there, just that they were not available. The truth of the matter, as so well pointed out by John Kriska, is that as soon as the crew on suppression had the fire in hand, they then moved to vent. There was a suppression, forcible entry, ventilation, search and yes even an overhaul team in the building. They just happened to be on the hose line at the time.
To addresss your use of moving air to vent a building in active fire, BRAVO! You have my attention now. I am a huge proponent of fighting fire under positive pressure, but you accurately stated that it's not for every time. The interesting part of the positive pressure story is not when it's not a good idea, but why. It IS the best way for a crew to get aggressive interior, It IS the best condition to conduct a search under, It IS the condition where a victim has a fighting chance and most important of all it IS the best condition for a RIT or FAST team to enter and find the mayday! I applaud any department striving to use this practice. So how come WHY is such an interesting story? Did you think I was going to leave you hanging on that one? It's because it IS also the fastest way for an officer to kill the entire team inside. If the officer dosn't know how to bring positive pressure to bear on the fire he will only bring the wrath of prometheus on the firefighters. The command to charge the building must only be given after an opening is made, (in the right place), and at the correct time. I'll get off this rant, but that would be a great forum to start.
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HEY,, When did you guys get plumbing? Why am I always the last to know about these things?
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Permalink Reply by ee779 on
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Teach an old dog new tricks, new officer to change his spots? I think we have a Dalmation lover here.... sorry I just had too!
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Well we just done went and dug us a hole in the basement floor and call the Honeydipper every month or so....
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Yes, I know you said PPV may not be used 100% of the time. I have seen it used and have used it myself. the down side to it is if you do your 360 it is sometimes hard to see where the seat of the fire is, from outside. Also, we don't know if this company has a ppv available on the engine, it might have been on the road with the truck! Being from a small town where your company is cross trained, we do both engine and truck ops. Certain times of the day you might possibly be the only company responding! With this being said, PPV may not a first option!
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Permalink Reply by John Kriska on
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Allow me to share some basic rules on the use of using positive pressure attack. You must know where the seat of the fire is, period. You must create an opening for the products of combustion to exit the building. You must set the system up and be operating before firefighters enter the building. The blower must be positioned remote from the fire area. Never, ever start PPA with firefighters inside the fire building. If your going to be aggressive with PPA, a PPA blower must be available on the first in engine company. PPA is extremely useful for companies with limited personnel, ie non-paid professional fire departments in rural areas. If your going to use PPA during the fire attack, you must have proper training. I have been teaching this concept since 1987 and would be more than happy to provide you with any additional information including a Power Point Presentation on the basics of PPV. All I need is an e-mail address. You can go to my page on this site and e-mail me and I will send the PPT to anyone interested.
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Permalink Reply by James Hawk on
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Bump.
This seems more pertinent than word games.
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Permalink Reply by Leland Lavender on
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It sounds like a good indirect attack with hydro vent to me... Only thing that would cross my mind is the "P" in lips, oh well though whats been said has been said
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