The Social Network & Community JUST for Firefighters
PPV and its use.
Hey everyone. I have been having a lot of discussions on the use of PPV at fires and its effectiveness. I am an old school firefighter (sorry) and when I learned about the PPV tactics I was on the fence, and I have been there since. I have seen it used many times but I dont realy see the positives over the standard ventilation tactics.
Just wanted to hear from depts that use it regularly and hear their pros AND cons about its usage.
From what I have learned, in order to use PPV effectively you need control over all openings such as doors and windows, in order to control the flow of air and its direction of travel. Like if you open the windows in the fire room and close all others, all the smoke will travel to the fire room and exit those windows. But if there is another window or door open on the other side of the building the smoke and fire will be pushed there as well, spreading it and possibly trapping firefighters. So unless you know for sure you have total control over ALL openings, and there is no broken windows, ventilation shafts, elevator shafts with open doors, open stairwells, etc etc, you can not completely control the flow of air. Now if this is true I believe it to be dangerous. Anything can happen to compromise those openings and you can trap your interior crews. I for one am a firm believer of a coordinated attack. Stretch to the seat of the fire and when the vent crews see water flowing pop the windows and cut the roof.
What are some other views on this. I take any feedback and criticism constructively as long as its not a verbal attack on me.
Thanks for your input in advance.
Moose
Just wanted to hear from depts that use it regularly and hear their pros AND cons about its usage.
From what I have learned, in order to use PPV effectively you need control over all openings such as doors and windows, in order to control the flow of air and its direction of travel. Like if you open the windows in the fire room and close all others, all the smoke will travel to the fire room and exit those windows. But if there is another window or door open on the other side of the building the smoke and fire will be pushed there as well, spreading it and possibly trapping firefighters. So unless you know for sure you have total control over ALL openings, and there is no broken windows, ventilation shafts, elevator shafts with open doors, open stairwells, etc etc, you can not completely control the flow of air. Now if this is true I believe it to be dangerous. Anything can happen to compromise those openings and you can trap your interior crews. I for one am a firm believer of a coordinated attack. Stretch to the seat of the fire and when the vent crews see water flowing pop the windows and cut the roof.
What are some other views on this. I take any feedback and criticism constructively as long as its not a verbal attack on me.
Thanks for your input in advance.
Moose
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by Dogg32 on
-
We have used PPV for the past 17-18 years. It is an excellent tool when used properly. It must be used in a coordinated attack. It will still work with multiple openings, but not as well. Ofcourse PPV is not the only tool in the box. There are times that other ventilation techniques are more appropriate.
Continue training, and using PPV and you will find that it is effective and not as dangerous as you are making it sound. I have seen several times where property and smoke damage have been reduced through proper use of PPV.
-
Permalink Reply by Robert Owens on
-
I am with you moose. I have yet to see the first good thing about PPV while a still active fire is in play. I also read in an article that you must also be sure that no victims or interior crews are near possible exhaust points. Well that right there kills it for me I can't know that until I have searched the building and I am not gonna wait to put a line on the fire to search and make sure no victims are near any exhaust openings.
There was a recent video on www.thebravestonline.com that shows how a fan can adversley effect interior operations. Check it out.
-
-
-
Permalink Reply by John Kriska on
-
The video provided on this blog is a perfect example of what not to do. I use it in my PPA presenatations as an example of violating basic PPV rules. Some basic rules in using PPV during the fire attack are: 1. You must create an exhaust opening in or close to the seat of the fire before the blower is used. 2. PPV must, and I repeat must be started and functioning before firefighters enter the building. Never ever start PPV with crews in the building, pull them out and then start PPV. I have effectively used PPV as an attack tool since 1989 and have never had a bad experience with it. My firefighters accused me of "taking the fun out of firefighting" because they no longer had to crawl through the crap in zero visibility. If your are interested, I would be happy to provide you (free of charge) with my basic Power Point PPV Presentation, all I need is an e-mail address. You can contact me at fckrisk@yahoo.com.
-
-
I would be very interested in it
Send it to: hdf561@comcast.net
-
Permalink Reply by Jeremy Searfoss on
-
I agree with John. PPV is a great tools when applied in the proper situations. If you look at PPV (gasoline engine) fans as far as CFM's most normal sized fans are about 18000 CFM's. Conversly, electric fans are about half. Also, if you intend to allow the occupants back into the dwelling the CO production by a gasoline power engine is as a concern. I have been in fire that PPV has been used ineffectivly and at this fire we had fire in the walls and it traveled vertically to the cockloft. I also understand that PPV is better applied out west because the building construction is different. We have New England building construction with many void spaces. This why it should be used with caution.
-
Permalink Reply by Marc Hansen on
-
Like every other tool in our toolbox PPV needs to be trained on to find out when is the right time to use it and when itstime to leave it on the truck. The fire service has been advancing hose lines for decades but at sometime in our career we have all seen them used incorrectly, the same goes for standard vent practices and PPV uses. We use the PPV when approite and havent lost a building with it yet. As far as gas fumes from the engine we use an extension hose to route the exhaust to a different area from the air intake.
Please dont take this as a personal attack because its not meant to be, its just a general observation that I've had for years. Being "old school" shouldnt mean that a new tool is bad just because its not like the old ways. I know that my TOG now is much better than the 3/4 boots that i was issued, My lungs and throat are happy that I wear a SCBA, LDH delivers much better water to the engine than (2) 3 inch lines. This list could go on for awhile but these are the arguments that I've taken part of in the fire houses that I've been a member in.
I'm not saying to scrap the regular vent practices but that you should spend some time learning the new tool to see what it can do...and most importantly can not do so that when the time is right you can use it to your best advantage. If you dont have a PPV the talk to a neighboring dept, if they use it ask to train with them on it or at least watch them. Or send out some of your younger guys who eat,sleep and breathe firefighting to structure fires in the area with a video camera so that you can see the change in conditions from PPV or no PPV.
-
Permalink Reply by Moose on
-
Thanks Marc, I didnt take it as an attack brother! lol I take things as a learning experience whenever I can. I should have explained myself a little better...Im an old school firefighter who is very open to change, and tries very hard every day to learn something new WHILE maintaining a grasp on older training that could still prove usefull in todays fire scenes. I received the Power Point from Chief Kriska, and I have chatted with firefighters like yourself from all over, and I now agree, that if used properly in the right setting, PPA can be very effective in reducing damage and danger to firefighters.
Thanks all for the input, it was very much appreciated!!!
Stay Safe all
Moose
-
-
Moose, glad to hear we won you over in considering the usefulness of PPA, you are right, it must be used properly and only when appropriate. Any more help that I can be, please feel free to contact me.
-
Permalink Reply by David Johns on
-
Looks like Kriska has got it covered,amen to common sense, side note if you have not already discovered it. The same goes for THERMAL IMAGERS if you have them, they have great usefulness but your basic firefighting skills will still be needed!
-
-
Interesting addition to this topic, that I started a LONG time ago...
We have now just received a donated PPV fan among other tools that a generous department in my area has donated to us including air tools and air bags, Hurst Hydraulic Rams and assorted hand tools.
So we will now begin to train our members in the use of PPV and PPA at our new training tower here in my county in a controlled manner. We are a small department but we go mutual aid to a larger department occaisionally who covers a SUNY campus and numerous grocery stores and commercial occupancies and need to stay up-to-date on our tactics and tools.
Thanks again for the input, John Kriska, are you still out there? I lost the copy of the power point you sent me and was wondering if you could send it to me again please?
Thanks.
Moose
© 2024 Created by Firefighter Nation WebChief.
Powered by
