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1044 vs. 660C Metro
Ok there is a big debate in my dept over switching from the 1044 to the 660 Now no-one except a few people are happy with this. I would like to get peoples experiences with both of them as well as any facts people might have to prove one is "safer" or "better" then the other.
Thanks,
FF31
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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Sorry but that's a statement almost entirely without content.
What kind of experiences can you have with a helmet? And why would you weight your purchasing decisions based on anonymous, anecdotal "evidence"? Seems to me the best thing to do is to buy one and pass it around and let everyone come to their own anecdotal conclusions.
Helmets are all tested the same, according to the same standards, criteria and methodology. As well, they are designed to be worn by firefighters doing firefightery work. I don't see how a helmet can be better in a "lab" but then fail in actual practice. What can be distinguished is personal style and comfort. Again, those are subjective.
So what you're asking for has nothing to do with "safer/safest" but style and comfort, otherwise you'd be looking for specific quantitative comparisons and analysis, which you do not appear to be seeking. Therefore in my opinion, you are looking for opinions and not facts, of course it's my opinion but my opinion is that you should be forming your own opinion based on solid facts and not opinions. I'm just saying...
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Permalink Reply by Eric Laroche on
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Buying stuff relying ONLY on spec sheets isn't good either. You have to see it, wear it feel it and if possible work with it. If not gathering opinions could be.
I assume (maybe i'm wrong) that when we make a choice about equipment, we first choose a few that are compliant with rules and standards that are concerned. That should be the first step. Then you ask to get samples to try out. ANd you can even ask for friends who might be using those equipments about pros and cons. I could also add that to get a few guys to try out equipment might help them feel more comfortable with change...
Would you buy scba's only based on compliance with standards. I wouldn't. Neither for a helmet, boots or gloves.
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I don't believe I said I believed in buying based only on spec sheets and compliance. I
did suggest buying a helmet and passing it around to develop "opinions". I did clearly state that wearing/trying it is subjective and I wouldn't (nor would I recommend) purchasing something so subjective based on anonymous anecdotal "evidence". And while FF31 says he is interested in safer/safest, his post and subsequent replies suggest otherwise: He wants people's input as to their opinion of style and comfort.
As you point out about compliance, etc, as the first step, then getting samples and people trying it out and their opinion; that all sounds so very familiar, I know I've read it somewhere....but you may not have read any of the/my previous comments so it could just be coincidental.
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"As you point out about compliance, etc, as the first step, then getting samples and people trying it out and their opinion; that all sounds so very familiar, I know I've read it somewhere....but you may not have read any of the/my previous comments so it could just be coincidental"
Actually it's the way we buy stuff. And I hope it sounds familiar to everybody because I think that's the way to be.
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Permalink Reply by FF31 on
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I did not ask about comfort. However I have heared from a person in a near by town that his helmet a 660c was broken by a piece of falling drywall. now I have been hit with falling dry wall with my 1044 and it has not broken.. that is what I am looking for either I have had a great experience and this is why. or this helmet sucks and this is why.
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Clearly, and it's also the way I've presented my thoughts on this topic.
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I'd ask for more supporting evidence than "..his helmet a 660c was broken by a piece of falling drywall." Unless the "piece" was half a sheet and dropped from 50 feet, in which case I suppose it could "break" but so too would the wearer.
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Permalink Reply by Richard Armstrong on
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Well Sorry but I read the question and if you can't ask a question on here and use the knowledge in any way than I guess one would question the validity and the usefullnes of FFN al together.I guess it's all in the way you wanted to take the question me personally I took it the same as asking a mechanic about a car and whether it is notorious for blowing trannies and motors or tranfer cases screwing up on a 4x4.I thought he was asking if anyone knew of any faults it had in the field over time and departments that had experiencewith the 2 different types of helmets.
If he's in it for points whatever the hell that is then I guess it is cheesy but I seen another post on here someone was asking what the best hydraulic tool was and noone chewed his ass off.I don't know what else to say
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Richard,
Asking for an "opinion" is just that, an opinion that isn't necessarily based in fact. I would accept a mechanic's "opinion" as that is his job and area of expertise, not so much the case here with the OP asking people which helmet is "safer/safest". I don't think anyone is all that qualified to make that determination. But feel free to argue his point for him. Not like I've chewed his ass of about it, just expressed my "opinion".
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Permalink Reply by Rick on
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For what its worth...... I have no experience with the 1044. When I was a rookie our dept used the 660 and you had to earn the "right" to wear your leather. Not looking for comments about that old policy. I twice exited a building with the styrofoam impact liner strapped to my head with no outter shell. That was a few years ago and they might have redesigned the 660 but we now use the 1010 and I havent heard of any similar problems.
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Thankyou Rick for your input I believe these are the kinds of things that FF31 was looking for.Experiences in the field on breakdowns or Impacts and what was the effect of the impact.
I'm going to go to the hall today and see actually what helmet we use.Cause we had a guy who was inside and a ceiling collapsed and he took a whack to the bucket and the helmet was fine but he is not.He has neck and back problems still.
Like has already been mentioned everything that is bought for the fire service is certified by the NFPA according to thier standards.But some are at the lower end of the specs to keep the price down and some go above and beyond the standards for a few bucks more.I know what I would choose as a purchaser but I'm not one.And not sure if anyone is on FFN who is involved in purchasing but nobody knows how they come to their decisions but from my experience as a purchaser in a factory Price was the #1 factor in deciding which one was bought.
FF31 I would suggest that you do some legwork and take a look on the manufacter's website and compare stats on the two and combined with those stats and real life experiences from ppl here on FFN you can make a somewhat knowledgeable presentation to your purchaser.That is the best way I can explain it and I hope that I can make Jack happy with what I have presented here.
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Richard,
It's nice to see that we are both on the same page...finally. Maybe your explanation will make more sense to FF31 than mine did, although I'd be confused if that were so since you basically repeated what I've said multiple times.
Simply because I called FF31 on his question shouldn't be construed as me being overly critical or rendering an ass chewing. I take my (and that of my fellow firefighter's) safety seriously. And to use an open forum to determine safer/safest is not safer/safest, it's collecting random and oftentimes uninformed opinions, not the route to be taken when making safety equipment purchase decisions.
I'm not sure that I would agree with you that (for example) helmets at the lower end of the price range, while still NFPA compliant may not offer as much protection as those at the high end. they are all designed to protect the wearer in the same way, by reducing impact injuries and protection from heat.
In the U.S. the high end are the top of the line leather buckets, pricey because of the way they are constructed (and much heavier). The tupper ware (660C) ones are much easier and quicker to produce than leather but are designed to offer the same amount of protection (and are much lighter). In fact, despite the risk of entanglement, leathers (and traditional composites like the 1044)) are still designed and sold with the brass eagle. The fact that this design element offers a (slightly) greater risk of entanglement than without, they are still popular. So then the less expensive (660C) helmet may in fact be the "better" one.
I still suspect that the original question had much more to do with style than safer/safest or safe/better. most likely it comes down to style (traditional vs. contemporary). If that is indeed the case then random opinions are probably valid yet, what's more valid are the opinions of those that will be wearing it.
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