Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by dcltsc2 on September 8, 2007 at 1:46pm

I work on a part time dept. but when we have a crew in we set up a rit team as soon as possible. We never go into the hazard zone without having at least 2 people in gear outside.

Permalink Reply by Asst. Chief Loftis on September 8, 2007 at 4:57pm

How many engines respond initially on an alarm? South Carolina is an OSHA state which means that we have to abide by the 2 in 2 out rule per OSHA 1910.134 That standard is in place for ANY IDLH atmosphere not just working fires. We are required to have an IRIT in place before entry is made with the only exception being the rescue of a viable victim. You have to have confirmation of entrapment in order to circumvent this standard. IRIT is defined under NFPA 1710 as a minimum of 2 personnel properly trained and equipped. Once the incident escalates beyond the initial alarm you must step up to a full RIT which is defined as a minimum of 4 properly trained and equipped. This is anytime that it is SUSPECTED that an IDLH atmosphere may be present. RIT is required for many other situations as well (Trench, Confined Space, Odor/Smoke investigations, etc.) . I am really interested in seeing what your department currently does.

Permalink Reply by Daniel Brinkley on September 8, 2007 at 8:37pm

Baltimore County MD

Initial Box Residential: 4 Engines, 1 Truck, 1 Squad/FL (after 6p), 1BC

Initial Box Commercial: 4 Engines, 2 Trucks, 1 Squad/FL (after 6p), 1 BC

IMS is used on all muti-company incidents 1st arriving FD Officer is to establish Command.

As steve said if not otherwise directed by command the 4th arriving Engine is to assume RIT
Yes by rule we should follow 2-in/2-out but companies are usually so on top of each other that I very seldom see an IC and a first arriving FADO suited up and ready as a true 2-out.

When command thinks everyone will be working they may upgrade the box to a working fire or go right to a Second Alarm. If the Second Alarm is pulled w/o first calling for the working fire Dispatch will send the Rapid Intervention Task Force first (the working fire assignment) and then send the second Alarm.

Working Fire: Dispatched As "The Rapid Intervention Task Force" 1Engine, 1 Truck /Rescue, 1 ALS medic

Second Alarm: A second complete alarm whether residential or commercial.

Also when a MAYDAY is called an additional alarm is automatically dispatched.

Hope this answers your questions.

Lt. Dan

Permalink Reply by Asst. Chief Loftis on September 8, 2007 at 9:53pm

It does . Thanks for the info. I think the biggest obstacle for IRIT/RIT is staffing. At my last dept. on an initial alarm we had 3 engines usually, or at least 2 engines and a quint. All Staff officers during normal working hours and 2 during any other time. We also had automatic aid agreements with neighboring departments where we did move-ups to cover area so we could dump everything on initial call out because our area was covered. The move ups allowed for each dept to provide their own IRIT/RIT. If an additional alarm was needed a neighboring dept would come in and provide RIT so our original RIT could be rotated in to work, thereby keeping the support dept guys fresh. We also did quite a bit of research on downed FF rescue. We played with the idea of staging RIT teams in strategic locations of the structure so lag time was reduced. It usually takes 12 - 14 people to sucessfully extricate a downed FF if you simulate the true conditions found in most commercial structures. What personal tools, etc do your personnel carry? Do you guys have any ideas that you have been trying? Do you use a drag rescue device? I know that was alot of detailed questions, but I am eager for new ideas, etc.

Permalink Reply by Daniel Brinkley on September 8, 2007 at 11:20pm

We totally agree with the 12+
thats why we end up w/ 3 companies in RIT at a working incidents.
We did a lot of our own "research" We ran many evolutions simulating a worcester like senario
every one of the evolutions took 3 companies or more to extricate.

We follow an Objective based response model

First RIT objective to "Locate and Maintain" a 4 person RIT deploys w/ search rope, TIC, Tools, and the RIT Bag

The additional companies bring more tools to the Tool staging area based on what they think they might need.

The second RIT to enter will have an oblective based on RIT 1's accomplishments ie. more air, saws, or complete search.

The Third RIT is prepared for the rest of the fireground as well as await their objective from the second RIT

Permalink Reply by Asst. Chief Loftis on September 8, 2007 at 11:47pm

It sounds like you guys have it going on. We have a group of Instructors that assist depts. in building/improving RIT operations. We have assisted numerous agencies in SC. I always enjoy doing it, because you always learn something every time you run a scenario. We have had some awesome ideas come from people that are just begining to understand the concept. It helps to have a fresh perspective. I like the fact that you guys have an objective based model. I think it is nice the way that you have it laid out. Do you guys do any firefighter self extrication training, like toxic cylinder change, wall breaches, hose bail-outs, rapid ladder bail-out, etc.? I was just wondering. There is an awesome book called Rapid Intervention Company Operations (RICO) You can get it from Thompson-Delmar Learning. You should be able to request an instructor copy for review. They have some awesome techniques. They are all illustrated with actual pictures.

Permalink Reply by Lt2406 on September 9, 2007 at 5:25pm

IN GAFFNEY WE ARE STARTING NOW TO USE A TRUE RIT TEAM INSTEAD OF JUST KEEPING THE 2 IN 2 OUT. 1ST ALARM IS 2 ENGINES AND A LADDER, IF A CONFIRMED WORKING FIRE THEN COMMAND IS SUPPOSED ( AND I SAY SUPPOSED BECAUSE OF SOME OLD SCHOOL MENTALITY STILL GOING ON)TO REQUEST THE NEXT ALARM WHICH BRINGS ANOTHER ENGINE FROM GAFFNEY AND 1 ENGINE AND RIT TEAM FROM CORINTH FD WHO HAS SET UP 1 ENGINE FULL OF RIT EQUIPMENT FROM SAWS TO HAND TOOLS TO A TIC TO STOKES AND ROPE AND WEBBING, RIT KITS, MARRIED SETS, SHORT HOOKS, AND PORT RADIOS. WE ARE NOW LOOKING FOR INSTRUCTORS TO COME AND DO SOME RIT TRAINING FOR BOTH DEPARTMENTS SINCE THE FIRE ACADEMY WON'T TEACH OFF SITE.

Permalink Reply by Daniel Brinkley on September 9, 2007 at 7:01pm

Where is Gaffney? What do you want? What kind of facility is available?

Permalink Reply by Daniel Brinkley on September 9, 2007 at 7:05pm

Ac:

We currently do not teach anything Dept wide.

MFRI (our state training agency) has a good ff safety and survival class (formerly known as Save your own) A lot of our folks have taken it (including me).

Our dept doesnt want the liability for things like the bail and the ladder slide but we keep pushing for it.

Stay safe

Lt Dan

Permalink Reply by Asst. Chief Loftis on September 9, 2007 at 11:52pm

I can see the departments point about liability. when we teach the rapid ladder bail, we put our students into a class III harness. We rig a 1:1 haul with a Prussik belay at the anchor on the ground. We do it out of a second story window. While it may sound dangerous to come out of a window head first and flip onto a ladder, it really isn't with the technique that we use. Our state academy had a problem with it at first, but we compromised by having all students sign an agreement that they would only do it in a life-safety situation. Tim Sendelbach has some good safety and survival training on his website that may be of interest to you as well. tes2training.com

Permalink Reply by Dave on September 10, 2007 at 7:17am

The first thing that should be taught in any Rit training or academy is when to call a MAYDAY. We as firefighters wait way to long to do so. When the Vibe alert is going off after you have been looking for a way to get out, it's too late. We as a whole are bad at this.

Permalink Reply by Asst. Chief Loftis on September 10, 2007 at 4:23pm

I agree, That is why we took conventional RIT training and made it a six part series. First we start with PROJECT IMPACT (tes2training.com), and then do the NFA CALLING THE MAYDAY (both portions), Then we do FF SAFETY AND SURVIVAL (teaches self rescue techniques), Then we do RIT TRAINING, Then we do the PROJECT IMPACT again to see how effective the training program was. This seems to be a very successful series. We have to create a cultural change in the fire service. We have to find a way to remove EGO from the fire service. Our FF's have to realize that we all can be the best at what we do, and still come up short at any time. We have gotten way to good at funerals.

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