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Poor fire companies and poorer attitudes
Watching a video of a fire company that will go nameless. They are a rural fire company and the video shows many members without PPE and a early 70's era fire engine.
What bites my ass is the response of many, I guess firefighters, "whoever is first gets the gear", why bother if you can't do it right" "I can't stand to watch this"
Many of us have shiney new custom apparatus with AC, GPS, hell, automatic transmission, seat belts and heat. We all have PPE under 5 years old. The firehouse has AC, Internet, a big ass plasma TV with every freaking channel available. Bills are paid, catered banquerts all the advantages of an easy firefighting life.
But there are companies that don't have nay of this. They get by on budgets int he hundreds, not hundred of thousands. Thier only goal is having enough money to put fuel in the engine. God forbid if it breaks down because they may not have the money to get it fixed.....again. Yeah they may rock a 75 Ranger or 82 Hahn if their lucky. The field piece is Earls old pick up that someone rigged a pump on the back.
Its so easy to say these guys are bad. Anyone under 30 has had it pretty easy in the fire service. They never rode on the back of an engine in the winter, used hip booots, always had SCBA's, enough radios for every officer, 1000 gall 2000 gpm pumps. But they think how much their doing. A great man told me "you ain't done shit until you put out a truck fire wit 500 gallons of water" I had the pleasure of knowing the members who built my fire house.....built, not had it built but put up thier houses, use extra money to actually put mortar to brick. I once read an old ledger of the ladies aux. They wrote with such pride of earning $35 at a bake sale. And yes they actually baked not bought like people do today.
I have a million times more respect for a bunch of guys who get on the engine without the right gear and doing what they can with what they have because no one else will. Yes, they got an old engine, garden gloves and rubber boots. PPE made by Ben Franklin, but damn give them the respect for doing what others won't. I'm the nieghbors who's house is on fire is gratefull for what these poor fire companies do.
I see fire departments getting all these grants and already have all this money, but the companies that really need don't get because they don't qualify, or believe it or not are afraid to apply for fear of being shut down for being sub standard. I wish there was a program to help these companies that really need the help. Instead of donating that engine or gear overseas give it to a department in America who can use it.
So next time your on youtube and you see a poor department say something a little positive. They know they may not being doing it right or have what they need. But at least thier trying.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Judson Vickery on
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Yes you right about less fortunate fire companies. Many have no support from the community or from the local government. Our fire company is support by tax monies and the community. We don't have big tall buildings except barns. we have only a couple houses over two stories and 54 miles of town to protect. Our ambulance is private and five miles away. Most of us work out of the township, 10 to 20 miles away. But, We have six good trucks though one is 1975 Brockway Pumper, and newest is F350 Ford double cab brush unit. Our budget is constantly at the same level last five years, little more than 1990. Our greatest assets are our mutual aid companies, when help is needed companies respond when called and our community support when we need new equipment, we just purchase rescue jacks for auto collisions, everyone pitched in. Also there are several groups out there looking to find equipment for fire companies that has a need . Our response time is usually under 4 min. I am proud of the men and women that take the step to become a firefighter and EMT.
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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on
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Craig,
I don't fault the guys that run those FDs, I fault the community and the local government that shamefully, woefully, inadequately, fund them. While they are to be praised for doing what they do, in my opinion if the community will not support them to a level to at least have proper PPE and SCBA then the writing is on the wall. As long as those guys struggle along with garden gloves, rubber boots, crappy out of date turn out coats if any, old out of standard helmets, and a few if any out of date scba's, and never demand more that is all they will ever have. It is time for those poor rural FDs to stand up an say enough is enough. You want me to risk my life, my job, my family, to protect you and save your property and YOU won't give me the proper protective clothing to do the job. Sorry NO! It is simply not acceptable any longer.
This local group goes to a fire, things go badly and one of their own is severely burned, hopefully he survives. The NIOSH investigation shows he wasn't wearing proper PPE. Guess who is the first to hang? That dedicated rural fire chief who had nothing because the community gave him nothing. The issue isn't dedication, the issue isn't willingness to serve, the issue is the community taking those people for granted and expecting them to get by with next to nothing and playing the odds that no one gets hurt or killed.
I am fully aware that my opinion will raise the hair on some people's necks, so be it. I think that if these ill equipped firefighters, getting by on bake sales and car washes, would stand up and say either begin to seriously fund us or we are closing the doors forever, change would occur. Frankly, if it doesn't, too bad for the community, but they got what they were willing to pay for.
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Permalink Reply by paula beckham on
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Well written craig. The old saying comes to mind No heart beats stronger than a volunteers which is what these guys are and they do what they do on the smell of a oily rag and love.
Sadly i agree with don though they need to put the peg in the ground and say no more fund us properly or we will shut the doors
we are lucky here in new zealand we do not have that issue every insurance policy on property has a fire service levy built into it that's how we get our funding. yep the vollys in the outer regions might have trucks that are older but they are well maintained and all of the ppe and station costs are covered by our national body including our training
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Permalink Reply by Russ on
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A good friend of mine Larry Davis wrote a book called Rural Firefighting Tactics (a great read). In his text he says that "departments that accept hand me down equipment is stuck in that time period"
In my personal conversations with him i told him that i came from a single house fire department where the oldest truck was a 1957 dodge power wagon and the first due was a 1964 international backed up with a homebuilt 1200 gallon tanker with a foldatank & honda pump.
I ran with that department for over 5 years and was proud to serve the people but when it came to how we did the job it didnt matter to the people because we showed up and DID THE JOB. i guess we were lucky, we had 2nd hand bunkers, mixed SCBA's and bought pass devices with fund drives.
Today that department has 6 stations and has every bell and whistle you can name
i wont slam "poor departmnents" because i come from that and in my opinion there are allways options. departments that dump old gear should offer it to the poor ones that need it
now i know about the liability issues but are we not taking a risk alredy useing little to no geer at all?
if you are getting a new truck with a federal grant CONSIDER kicking the old one down to a department that will take it and love it like we did when we got a hand me down
this post is dedicated to the memory of the "Brinson's" and the "Deese's" who could take a pickup and make it into a class A engine in a couple of days (oh hell junior could make a class A engine out of a toy fire truck)....because the first time i got water from that ex gas tanker hooked up to a chevy 454 engine that could supply 2 engines and run its own deck gun was some good firefighting back then
god bless small fire departments and thanks to Craig for making me remember where i came from...its not where you're at, its where you've been
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Respectfully Don i think you have it wrong. Speaking only for myself i joined to serve because firefighting and (dont laugh) community service interested me. There are still a few bastions of community minded people still left in the US and you also have to consider that some really rural communities are really that poor and the community/county/city cannot fully fund or equip them I know of several who are just getting rid of some trucks they had when i was a teeanger and are running them as front line pieces.
i agree that substandard or no equipment is dangerous and wrong but some communities have run what they brung and make due and to me thats dedication
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Okay let me explain my point of view.
I was originally on a VERY small rural volunteer fire department in 1977. To say our equipment was subpar is an understatement. We had a 1950 Ford 500 gpm Barton American front mount pumper, a 1937 Ford 500 gpm Darley engine, and a 1949 Mack EFU 2000 gallon Tanker(YES, I said TANKER). We had 6 rubber turn out coats, about a dozen MSA meltaway helmets, no boots, hardware store gloves and 2 Scott pak1 SCBAs. We had a mix and match bunch of nozzles, hose so old some was from 1947 with aluminum couplings...and not the anodized aluminum of today. We had a minimum of tools, axes and pike poles.
We got an influx of new members, me included, and we decided we were not going to stand for using substandard cast offs and hand me downs any longer. We began an aggressive funding raising campiagn and began taking a hard look at grants. I am not going to say we didn't accept used PPE that was better than ours for a while, because we did. I am also not going to tell you that change occurred overnight, or even as fast as we hoped it would, but change did occur. The way to make change occur is to continuously strive for it and make it happen. Not simply accept that what is will always be.
That same small rural volunteer FD is now the proud owner of a 2005 HME 2000 gpm rescue engine that we received AFG funding for and then paid the matching funds from our fundraising money. We also operate a 1985 Pierce 1500 gpm engine that we bought used. The funding for this was a 50/50 split of tax money and FD fundraiser money. We also run a 1992 GMC/Monroe Truck 1000 gpm/1500 gwt Tender (GOD I hate that term!!), and a 1984 5/4 ton GMC military surplus chassis brush truck. The engines and the tender are all equipped with 5 inch, 3 inch, and 2 inch hose. They are carry quite an assortment of handtools from axes to haligans to FDNY roof hooks and more. We have rotary saws and chain saws for venting. We have gas and electric powered vent fans. We have Hurst extrication equipment. We carry gas and CO monitors. Add to that state of the art PPE and SCBA ( also purchased with an AFG grant) and you can see how far we have come.
My point is clearly this. If you are offering fire protection then offer serious fire protection. The local government needs to supply, or assist in supplying, proper PPE and equipment for its local firefighters. It has nothing to do with a lack of community service, or individual dedication. It has to do with doing what is right and equipping your firefighters is right. If the community doesn't have that support for the fire department then I have no obligation to risk my life with subtandard equipment. You may see that as a bad attitude, I see it as being responsible to my family. I am willing to risk my life for my neighbors, but not stupidly or inadequately equipped.
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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Seems to be a contradiction in mindset from you Craig considering a similar thread about the (assuming) the same dept video in question. http://my.firefighternation.com/xn/detail/889755:Topic:6135586
In that thread, the aspect that the dept in question was also a private fire company which in turn was contracting out with communities. Of which leads to much more issues than just a "dedication to community" but instead the opportunity or potentially aspect to low bid for service contracts at the expense and safety of the people "employed" by the private dept.
Are there poor depts out there? Absolutely. Should this be an excuse for substandard equipment, PPE, tactics, etc? No. What we saw in that video should absolutely be criticized, there was absolutely NO excuse for such an operation, lack of command, such a response and so forth. Hiding behind a "poor funding" excuse or even "dedication to the community" means nothing when lives and safety of responders is put behind and below standards just to save a buck.
I agree with Don here that.... "If you are offering fire protection then offer serious fire protection. The local government needs to supply, or assist in supplying, proper PPE and equipment for its local firefighters. It has nothing to do with a lack of community service, or individual dedication. It has to do with doing what is right and equipping your firefighters is right. If the community doesn't have that support for the fire department then I have no obligation to risk my life with subtandard equipment."......
In the case of this particular dept (in which I believe you initially referred) it is a private, contracted out dept, providing substandard service. I also agree that depts that do face such financial hardships need to step up and draw a line in the sand as to services. Such debate has gone on in previous threads, however, I disagree with such sentiment that a community knows the type of service level they get. On the contrary many citizens do not have an idea, nor understand the limitations of a dept and how funding relates. Yes, there is a distinction between depts splurging on good equipment or station "incentives" to attract volunteers as opposed to paying for full time staff. Yet, for those depts....so poor this thread had to be started....they also have an inherent obligation to start protecting those who do volunteer their time for "community dedication" by going forth and explaining they can no longer afford to keep operating with such blantently substandard equipment like garden gloves, hardhats, lack of PPE and so forth.
Although, financial aspects do dictate what can and can't be afforded, I disagree with.... "So next time your on youtube and you see a poor department say something a little positive. They know they may not being doing it right or have what they need. But at least thier trying."
I do not believe "passes" should just be given for poor decisions and putting crews in jeapordy just because a dept is poor and "they're trying"...hogwash. Even a poorly funded dept can and should act professional enough to know their limitations and adjust tactics and strategy accordingly. As such, much can be learned from viewing the mistakes of others and the net is filled with all sorts of free training and so forth that can be tapped into. There is no reason that passes should be given just because "they're trying".
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Permalink Reply by Chris Weber on
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Hey Craig,
Good topic of discussion.I can honestly say as chief of our small VFD that it is a real pain sometimes to balance out the money coming in and the money in the bank with the expenses.Our treasurer had done an outstanding job the last couple years of keeping our expenses to a minimum and investing a little bit of our funds the best she can right now.We did get a AFG grant a couple years ago for new SCBAs and that was a godsend for us.We all have good gear and we are training the best we can right now.But,last November our tanker had a major mechanical failure while on a call and it is permanantly out of service.It would have cost us way more than the vehicle is worth to get it fixed.We have been in the process of trying to replace it for a couple of years but it caught up to us before we had adequate funding to do so.
It is a 1986 GMC gas powered truck that was refurbed in 97.Resale on that is about nonexistent.We have no hydrants or water system in our Twp. so we rely on our tanker for the intial water supply.Thank God I have really good MA depts. right now.I don't like to rely on MA but the funding issue right now is not real good.
Our engine is a 2000 Ferrara,our recue unit is a 1996 GMC Suburban we found when our old recue failed to pass the state vehicle inspection,and our brush/water supply unit ia a 1964 IH Howe.(It is probably the best truck in the fleet.)
The days of us buying new trucks are over.It is probably going to be used from here on out.I have no problem with that.We just try to balance our apparatus/FF costs with the costs of upkeep and maintenance of our building.It needs several costly upgrades and it is hard to balance it all out.
FF safety is first and foremost however when we make a dicision to purchase anything.We rely on donations and such tyo survive as we get no tax money from our municipality.I have no problems with that either.Our residents are great at supporting us the best they can.
Its a real balancing act to survive.
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Chris are you a private fire company? If not, why doesn the community actually fund your department?
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Not private.Been in existence for 60 years yesterday.Never had tax support from our municipality.Quite a few of the smaller depts. in this area don't.We make it and do what we can.get good at making priority lists and not spending any extra money on stuff we really don't need.
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Permalink Reply by Jack/dt on
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Chris,
If your municipality offered to fully/adequately/better fund your department through taxes, and in exchange your department would become a municipal volunteer department, with municipal/public oversight, would you accept such an offer?
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Permalink Reply by Just Plain Craig Moyer on
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Not a contradition at all. If you look at that company I called the worst in America it was paid by the citizens to provide a service. Yes paying taxes are a form of payment but those jokers were handed a check without any balances and obviously pocketed most of it. They are in an area with 2 other well run fire departments but they only do the minimum.
I'm talking about those departments that don't have the tax base that many of us have. Can't afford to go to the state fire school let alone FDIC.
Let me put it thise way. I'm poor but I need my car fixed, Something is wrong with the brakes, so I put fluid in because thats the cheapest thing to do. Then when I have a little more money I'll get brake shoes, Then claipers later on, finally when the pedal is hitting the floor I'll get the master cylinder fixed. Its dangerous but I can't afford to do any better. Many people don't realize that being poor cost more then having money. By my example it could have cost say, $200 when if I had the money it might have cost $150.
Those poor fire departments are putting fluid in even though they know they really need a master cylinder. Its dangerous but they can't afford it. Being poor always cost more.
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