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Opinions on Fire Officer Qualifications
Just looking for some opinions.....Do you think it is acceptable and safe for a firefighter who has been active for 3 years with just the state minimum Mandatory certification, 8 months as a certified Firefighter 1&2, and having never been inside a structure fire that was not training related...be a fire officer at the rank of LT?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Bob Callahan on
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That being said, a person can only gain experience if they run to fires.
My volunteer department, as I said earlier, runs 2-3 working structure fires a year, including mutual aid. Given that the majority of my members can't make every fire, that translates to 1, or maybe 2 working structure fires. And that is the case with the majority of the VFDs in my volunteer parish.
Even my combo department is slowing down. 5 years ago we ran 24 structure fires. Last year we ran 5, and 3 of them were pretty much on the ground on arrival. The other two were fairly simple room and contents fires. And so far this year we have yet to see even 1. The department a couple of districts over still sees a fair amount of action, but they are about the only department in the parish that sees structural fire on a regular basis.
And yes, we aggressively train with live fire both in our burn building and gas props, but as you know, and will likely agree, it ain't the same.
Yes, experience is, and always will be the best teacher. Agreed. That being said, a department can't generate runs, so one in many cases in slower departments with limited fire runs, one does have to use training levels as a gauge for promotion.
That very well may be the case here as we know nothing about the demographics or run volume of this department.
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Permalink Reply by capcityff on
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I know you can't control that your department doesn't run much fire but I would just think there would be someone with more than 3 years fit for the job there.
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There very well may be somebody there with more than 3 years, but they may not want to take the position due to family or work commitments, a lack of desire to be an officer or they simply know they would not have the time to commit or want to commit the time to the position due to other interests. or they may have experience, and want the position, but they are not the person the Chief wants in that position due to decsion making problems, relaibility or other issues.
I'm not gonna knock this kid due to lack of expereince as on a VFD, or knock the Chief for making the choice, especially if this is a slower small community or rural VFD, as this kind of situation is quite common. This kid, as I stated earlier, may be one of the best trained members on his department as likely, in a rural VFD, the older members may have little if any in the way of formal, certified training and have little if any desire to take classes or even challenge the test to get that certification. So in that case, do you go with expereince without truly documentable training and certifications, or less experience and certified training? Is there a "right answer"? IMO, no as you could very easily make a case for choosing one or the other and honestly, a lot depends on the makeup the direction and the leadership within the organization. This kid, again, may very well be the best person for the job, in that organization.
Obviously a combination of the two is ideal, and on busier surburban VFDs, busier combo departments and career departments, there are likely several canidates for officer's positions with both. Again, on a rural VFD where many of the senior mem are likely already at the command level, you are often faced with the decision as to which way to go.
Is it possible that the Chief was young and or new and wanted to start changing the direction of the department with younger officers? Possibly. Maybe he wanted to set a precident by choosing somebody with certified training v. a possibly more expereinced member without certified training as a way to set a direction or a path for the other members. Maybe he has a background, such as military or combat experience, that makes him prepared to handle and lead crews. Again, not knowing anything about the department in terms of membership, training , direction or situation, or not knowing anymore about this new LT other than what has been posted here, it's very hard for anyone here to say if this was a good or a bad choice.
Maybe the OP could provide us with alittle more information about the department - run volume, membership, training levels and overall direction - that may help with this discussion.
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Permalink Reply by DCFireman on
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I have been in the fire service for 35 years as a volunteer and 30 as career (recently retired).... The amount of fire you see does not ensure you are ready to lead, it is a combination of things which help you grow into an effective leader. The combined equivilent of training and time in grade are the only quantifiers that can be used you will never really know if someone is ready to be an officer until they are actually doing it!
But to have 3 years of being able to go into a burning buildings and then be thrust into the role of officer is not a good mix... You will always find that guy or gal who can roll right into that position as a natural but for everyone of them there are 3 who really should not be there.
The bottom line is you must have a mechanism for the promotion of your members.... I strongly suggest a mixture as listed below;
Training
Time in grade
Testing Process - YES even for volunteers
It is the best as you get to deciding who, what, when and where..........
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Permalink Reply by 55 TRUCK on
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NO,NO,NO! Time & Experience are just a couple things that are needed to make a good officer.
Unfortunately, I have seen Vol. & a few small Paid Depts. that have young officers with very little time on the job. Why? Most times it is because the Dept. needs a person in that position and no one else steps up.
I started out as a Vol. in a dept. that did about 400 runs per yr. Then worked for a small Suberban dept. that did about 5,000 a yr. Now I work for the City. we do about 200thousand a yr. My Engine co. does about 3,000 a yr.
With the City you must have at least 8yrs on to be a Lt. like most paid dept. we have a promotion process.
As a few others have asked. I would also like to know why this FF is being considered for a Lt. spot. What type of Dept. is it? What is there run load? What is the area they cover? Number of FFs on the Dept.?
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With all due respect we are likely not talking about a city. We may not even be talking about a busy surburban area, or a small town.
We very easily could be talking about a rural department that runs less than 100 calls a year. Possibly even well less than 100.
So let's say we are talking about a VFD where there are a limited number of members and the senior members have either been officers and now simply don't want to anymore as they feel they have done there time, or the senior members are already the command staff.
What do we do? Not appooint Capatins and LTs because all we have are young kids without very much experience? Not put anyone in those positions and have no established small crew leaders, or leaders at all if the command staff can't respond? Not put anyone in those positions to learn to be leaders for the day that the senior members decide to hang it up?
Again, I doubt that we are talking about a department like my combo department. I doubt we are talking about a busy surburban VFD like my previous department with plenty of fire time. We may be talking about a department like my cuurrent VFD, or even far smaller and even less active VFDs that surround us in the even more rural parts of the state.
What do you use a criteria if experience is an issue?
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Permalink Reply by Kai Reynolds on
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No, I do not think it is safe. Its actually funny I was having the same conversation with other cadets, and we all agree the ones training us to be the best, should be the best!
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Permalink Reply by Russ on
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i took the liberty of reading other posts before answering because i have a personal expierence with your question. short answer NO. no amount of book lernin is a substitute for expierence coupleled with training and obtaining certification(s)
before i became a LT i obtained florida's certification as fire officer 1 which was unusual for a volunteer to obtain because it was supposoed to be exclusive for paid firefighters.
i got alot of praise but i was also concerned because i was told that "now you are really redy to go... you're "certified as an officer". this disturbed me because i was smart enough to realize that there was more to being an officer than simply passing a test. i found out later that the praise was directed at me because i was a volunteer at the time, and volunteers wer not supposoed to be able to take / pass the test. i thanked everyone but begged off any over praise. i thank god i had a chief who i was able to go to and give me the straight dope on why i was so special at the time. i was glad when it died down because there were other FF's who were way better than i was at that time
3 years expierence & 8 mts certified as a FF? depending on the structure of the fire department, again i'd have to say no
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