How would you ????

A call comes in for a possible plane crash in the middle of 10,000 acres of forest.. You arrive on scene to find a small plane in the trees, with possible victims that are still alive." SEE PICTURE" What would you do ??? Remember, your in the middle of a forest, so there are no roads for miles, small volly dept, with the closest high angle rescue approx. at least an hour out. Looking for any input......

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Permalink Reply by Trey Godwin on January 31, 2012 at 3:34pm

Well you say small volunteer department, but size in numbers does not really matter to see how many people you have in the aircraft from a safe distance, By that i mean use a TIC if you got one. We have used them as well as K-9's to search for people that were possibly ejected from the vehicle. and it works. But in that event you need one that has the "throtle" or a zoom button in other words.  But i think your best bet is the technical rescue team but i dont see where you could stabalize using many of the trees they all look a little small.

Permalink Reply by Bob Callahan on February 2, 2012 at 8:32am

Around here the command and control of the operation you described would be in the hands of either the Sheriff's Office or the State Police. We would be called in for assistance and likely would be a part of the command team, but the ultimate responsible agency would be LE.

Given the density of the woods up here, it's likely that aircraft would have to be used. We may be able to get a hold of Forestry's spotter plan, and probably could utilize the local air-med chopper. Depending upon the duration the State Police's chopper may come up from Baton Rouge as well as some military helicopters as well.

Our department does have a technical rescue team, but we have experience with trees. Likely we would call in the SRT's from the 2 neighboring cities that may have more experience. Also given the situation, it's likely we may call in personnel from one of the local tree services.

About 15 years ago we had a ultra-light end up in the trees, but in this case it was near the roadway. We called in the closest career department's 75' ladder, but it was too short to reach the patient. We then called in the next closest department's 95' Snorkel, and that was also too short., We then called in a 125' crane from one of the local tree companies. one of our firefighters, who was also a treeman, climbed up from the Snorkel to the the ultralight and secured the patient into the ultralight. he then , along with the tree company personnel, secured the top of the tree for lifting, and the tree was cut at the level of the Snorkel. The top of the tree, ultralight, patient and all was then lowered to the ground.

Permalink Reply by Marc Hansen on February 2, 2012 at 8:30pm

If viable patients are confirmed in the plane: LOTS of mutual aid including specialty teams 

1) No helicopters in the area of the plane rotor wash would be bad

2) Start calling the local 4x4 or ATV club to ferry in equipment and personnel

3) Look for contact info for local excavating companies in the event you need to create a road. Might as well get this started early because at some point the plane will have to come down and be removed from the site  

4) Contact a rigging company that is expierenced in building large commercial structures. They are the people who are used to rigging large heavy objects that go up and down safely, most of my rigging training   concerns mostly people and a stokes basket

In this scenario the FD although an all hazards group might be better off letting the operations be run by people who do this everyday.

If no viable patients then work with FAA, NTSB and local coroner and see if they wont agree to knocking trees down to bring the plane to a safer recovery position.

To confirm patients you could use handheld aviation radio, bullhorn, TIC or after HiAngle team arrives set up a highline and have one of them go OVER the plane.

We had a plane land on a local golf courses fairway and had to use golfcarts to ferry us and the equipment out to the scene due to lack of access for trucks.

Permalink Reply by Mike Schlags (Captain Busy) Retd on February 2, 2012 at 11:04pm

This is one of those scenarios that scream unified command. When the incident is too complex for your department to handle, simple make contact with both law enforcement and your local EMSA / Emergency Management folks and let their fingers do the walking.

Just because you are the fire department does not mean that you will always have the needed resources to handle everything thrown at you. By using ICS Unified Command, the military, law enforcement, and other state and federal agencies can be organized and handled. The National Transportation Safety Board you know for sure will be there to investigate why the accident happened. This is a huge incident and you need help, and now. And most importantly, someone else's checkbook will be able to handle the associated costs, unless your department is totally buck up...

CBz

Permalink Reply by Oldman on February 3, 2012 at 12:52am

OOOHHH, OOOHHH, Mister Kotter, I know!

Permalink Reply by Bull on February 3, 2012 at 1:23pm

The excavating crew makes me wonder one possible problem.........If this is in a national forest, could we still go in and knock down trees and make roads ????

Permalink Reply by ashfire on February 4, 2012 at 10:17am

In my area if there is any type of crash of a aircraft it becomes a major box alarm which means more than one company is called into action. That would mean 4 engine companies 3 truck or ladder companies 1 heavy rescue, EMS units, anyother special needed required services depending on the location of the call and a command officer. Local  law enforcement will also be dispatched so you might get who ever operates in that area.

Other services  could mean water tankers, 4x4 or ATV apparatus (brush units) crash units from military base or airport plus the county foam and hazmat unit,  police aviation units which are medivac and rescue helicopters and special rescue groups.

State Police have control over all aviation incidents until the FAA get there but first fire officer makes the call for what will be needed on the scene and takes command until someone higher comes in. 

Permalink Reply by Marc Hansen on February 4, 2012 at 7:54pm

I would imagine to save life and limb that it wouldnt be an issue but dont know for sure.  Years ago we had a commercial airliner crash, at the time the city of Pittsburgh had a group called Delta Team that went thru and cut a roadway thru private property with no problem

Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on February 7, 2012 at 10:03am

Considering this has gone on for a bit.....as I first mentioned, this incident actually occurred relatively close to me (about 25 miles east).

 

Nobody knew the plane crashed here, there really were no airports or radar or even distress call put out etc to account for the plane going missing. The pilot was intoxicated, was able to climb down on his own, walked to a house where authorities were notified of this.

 

So while the scenario being painted questions more, it does come down to size up and what you do have if encountering. Resources and availability of those are going to differ all over as well as the solutions to mitigate. Sure it helps to think on what you would do, but then again what are the chances of this occurring as opposed to something like say MAYDAY training, or getting to the basics?

Permalink Reply by Oldman on February 7, 2012 at 10:14am

I had actually seen this report in a pilots newsletter I subscribe to, so like you I already knew the story. But it is interesting to read some of the ideas others had.

Definitely not something one would normally see.

Permalink Reply by John S-B on February 7, 2012 at 10:36am

This calls for old school ladder an rope work.  Anybody remember the flag pole raise?  First of all I'd get as many 35' ground ladders as I could along with manpower, ropes and webbing.  First thing is to secure the plane to the trees it's in with lots of webbing or rope.  (good reason to keep up on knots)  Once plane is secured as best as we can. I'd do two flag pole raises on either side of the cockpit, then bring up a 24' ladder and lash it between the two ladders as a platform to work off of.  Lashing a backboard to the ladder used as the platform would make it easier to work off of.  Depending on how injured the pilot/passengers were, I'd either put a harness on and assist them down or in a stokes and lower with ropes.  This is going to be dangerous and labor intensive no matter how we do it.  Ground ladders can also be used to stabilize the plane, I think with the weight distributed to several ladders and trees, it would probably be okay, but obviously there's no guarantee. 

Permalink Reply by Andre Oosthuysen on February 8, 2012 at 8:56am

In South Africa the fire fighters is trained as USAR (rope technician) we would climb the tree near to the plane, depending what we find, we would then use rope techniques to get patients down. As most fire fighters have medical training, we would start if it is safe with patient treatment.

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