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How long is too long to get water on a fire
I was reading an article about a fire in Weston Missouri. They are accused of taking 14 minutes to get a steady stream on a fire that resulted in the death of the business owner. Last year there were issues with another video showing the San Fransico FD taking about 6-7 minutes for water to flow.
I know each situation is different and "things" happen. But how long should it take minimum and maximum before the wet stuff hits the red stuff.
My feeling is no more then 3 minutes when the fire peice of equipment pulls up. As a driver I was taught - put it in pump
- tank to pump
- make sure the hose is clear and charge line.
Since we had 1000 gallon tanks I knew we had 5-8 minutes before I had to worry about water. So I had time to connect the hydrant lines or wait before the next engine arrived. (our mutual aid companies are very close sometimes within minutes of each other)
Of course you get into the hydrants not working, missed assignments delayed response. But my feeling is if you have 500 gallons or more you should be able to begin an interior attack while your setting up you supply lines.
So how long to you believe it should take from the time apparatus pulls up to get water on the fire.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Barry Greer on
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Craig, at statter911.com there's a lively discussion on the Weston, Missouri, fire and the delay in getting water and whether or not the delay contributed to the victim's death. Under ideal conditions, getting water on the fire 3 minutes after arrival seems good, but conditions are never ideal. Weston firefighters were using a new pumper and questions were raised about operator error, lack of training, on-board electronics, the need for using the primer, etc. In particular, I wondered about use of the primer when the engine had a tank. We always pumped from the tank first, then switched over to the hydrant feed once the connection was made. Ironically, 100 years ago at the Triangle Fire, FDNY firefighters arrived and had the standpipe charged faster than is done in modern times because NYC had high pressure mains in those days in lower Manhattan that allowed a direct hydrant-to-building connection or hydrant-to-hose connection.
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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I know each situation is different and "things" happen. But how long should it take minimum and maximum before the wet stuff hits the red stuff.
If each situation is different, then how can such a timeline thus be placed then?
No doubt, that a quick time should be sought for getting water on the fire, however, the response, resources, staffing, and situation itself does dictate the timeline. If we also go by the RECEO acronym, Rescue, Exposures and scene safety come before Confinement. However, resources and situation do dictate moreso.
Since we had 1000 gallon tanks I knew we had 5-8 minutes before I had to worry about water.
With how many lines and what size flowing? We did similar timeing while training and knew we had about 3 minutes with a 2 1/2" straight stream with 1 1/8" tip. If a bigger tip is placed it can adjust the time. So what I'm getting at is it is possible that a hose team could run out of water from a tank before a hydrant can be secured, especially if it is the engineer (driver) securing the source.
So how long to you believe it should take from the time apparatus pulls up to get water on the fire.
As mentioned, quickly as possible, however, I won't put a timeline on this because there are many variables that can not always be accounted for.
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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on
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They are accused of taking 14 minutes to get a steady stream on a fire that resulted in the death of the business owner.
I'm not familiar with the case, but did the lack of water contribute to the death or was he already gone? I know it may only be a choice of words, but it can change the emotion of the discussions.
As others have said, there's so many variables so how can there be a benchmark?
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There's no evidence that the water problem had anything to do with the death, and a close viewing of the tape indicates the pump problem was solved at 8 minutes.
The tape does include mention that the diseased had attempted suicide twice. The public, however, led by a close friend of the victim, asserted incompetence on the part of the fire department, but the motive there is clearly grief and anger and a need to scapegoat. The chief of the West Platte Fire District needed to respond faster to the allegations than she did, before the matter was brought before the city council.
Dave Statter, at statter911.com, said that in the 38 years he covered the fire service in the DC area, he could say with certainty that only a handful of fire deaths could be directly attributed to failed equipment, operator error, or a botched response.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Add a couple of other important things like doing a size-up to make sure that you didn't miss victims, hazards, or fire size/location/spread prior to entry, the vertical distance from the pumper to the fire (first floor front room in a SFD or 33rd floor of a high rise), water supply needs, and available manpower.
There are too many variables to attempt a "one-size-fits-all" answer to this question.
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Permalink Reply by Just Plain Craig Moyer on
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I was talking an 1.5 or 1.75 line pumping 125 to 150. In our situation the next due engine would be there within seconds to minutes. If it takes longer then 10 minutes to get somewhere your lost. Yes I counted my blessing many times.
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I don't want anyone to think I'm accussing Weston or any other fire company of malpractice. It could happen to anyone and it did happen to me once when the pump broke on a car fire. I'm sure Weston did everything in thier power to do what needed to be done.
After reading on this and other websites about response times of 10-20-30 minutes to parts of some districts I really count my blessings. In my county alot of companies are really close (less then 5 mins away). So we do things a little differently then someone who knows the next engine is 10-15 minutes out.
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Permalink Reply by Patti Walz on
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In my area our next due engine is about 10 minutes away and that is going code 3 straight to our station. If we are going to a place in the hills the response time is longer.
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Craig, glad you raised the issue of water on the first after arrival, and doing so is a good thing in light of Weston. Pipenozzle.com is Posting analysis of the Weston fire and how the Kansas City media handled coverage, not of the fire, but of the civilian reaction a week after the fire when the anonymous video was made public.
Thanks for bringing up the question.
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Exactly. None of those alleging the Weston victim died as result of the delay in getting a line charged have any expertise to make an allegation that serious. And the video indicates water was on the fire 8 minutes after arrival of the first due engine company when the smoke on the D side turned to steam. Posting a full analysis on pipenozzle.com later today.
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Just posted detailed look at media response to the Weston fatal fire at pipenozzle.com
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Permalink Reply by Shareef Abdu Nur on
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There are so many factors to consider, like finding the seat of the fire, gaining access, longer lays, etc. We teach our members that as a pump operator your job is as follows and in this order:
1. spot a hydrant
2. place the Engine in pump
3. ensure that the attack line is clear the bed or broken and connected appropriately
4. charge the line on the command of the attack team only
5. establish a water supply
This is done expiditiously and within minutes of the Engine arrival. We do yearly proficiency testing with each member and he/she must be able to do this without incident. Even our Truck operators must be proficient in operating the pump.
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