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Do We Ask Too Much of Volunteers?
Ok this is going to cause an uproar...but I think we ask too much of volunteers.
When I joined back in 1978 we needed at least Fire I in my company which consisted of SCBA training, ladders, hose handling and small tools. We could take other courses, most took Vehicle rescue, hazmat and some officer training courses.
Now I see companies requiring members to have what equals over 100 hours of training within the first year, including monthly in service training.
Now I'm all for training, I used to go to as many fire schools as I could. But then again I was 16 and in high school and had the time. But now we have members who are older (18 at least) and working, have families and responsibilities. Many times I have seen on websites telling people to give an hour a week or whatever time they can. But once they get in they are usually required to get training after training. Once again I'm all for training but how much. Our company has the state hazmat units. Should we require all members to be hazmat certified? Another company has a collapse response unit. Should every member be required to have that training?
Its called volunteer for a reason. I remember being on a call with 7 FFs'. I knew 3 of us were going in. 1 was going to take the hydrant and stay there until the fire was out. 2 were great roof men but don't go inside. 1 was going to talk to the girls across the street. Is that ideal. Most was say not. I say why not. I don't want someone who is not comfortable doing what they don't want to do. I don't want to lose someone because thier forced to so.
The volunteer fire service is dying. Meadville PA Fire and Rescue #39 just closed down for various reason and the equipment auctioned off. One was lack of members with certified qualifactions. I see engines going out with 3 FF's. that extra guy could be at the hydrant or humping hose or thowing ladders instead of a fully SCBA qualifed FF who would be better inside fighting fire.
I might be wrong and will say so if proven wrong. But the service needs every able body we can get.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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The training and qualifications - not the turnout gear - make the difference between the two.
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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Wait a second....I thought we all did the same job, right? So why should we ask more time and effort from career, but say we ask too much from vollies?
That being out of the way, I will say that I don't believe that too much is being asked, but the simple fact that times have changed. As in any industry out there there are new technologies, new dangers, new hazards, new challenges and so forth, we can't keep using antiquated techniques and expect the same results....it just isn't happening.
Our company has the state hazmat units. Should we require all members to be hazmat certified? Another company has a collapse response unit. Should every member be required to have that training?
And why do they have such specialties if there is an issue with staffing them? Seems to be the mindset that this is what we need to do to get funding, calls, etc, but without looking at the costs (all costs, not just monetary) involved to maintain. In a sense such teams or specialties can be viewed as living beyond the means of the company.
IMO, I do not think we are asking more from volunteers, this is the fire service today, these are the challenges we face, the days of asking for any warm body should be over. Today we need people to actually understand a fire scene and to get the training to do this job. I sure as hell don't want to mutual aid with some volly dept that believes there is too much being asked of them. I want to go somewhere knowing the next FF has an actual understanding of the job, not just a warm body.
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Exactly Jack!
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That about sums it up Bull, if one really believes that too much is being asked of them, perhaps they are looking to be involved in the wrong place. I do believe this brings up another aspect of fire dept or social club.
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Jack/dt The differencfe between paid and Volunteer is one gets paid to go to fire school the other doesn't. While fire doesn't care if we're paid or not usually the family does. When I joined and like many others I took as many courses as I could. If I had a family at the time and I was gone every weekend my marriage would not be as..okay my marriage might be a bad example.
Not really Craig. A dept can request an applicant to already have certifications to apply. In such cases many depts will send new hires through their own academy to learn how that dept does things. For many career people, if you truly look at the big picture, many career FF's today are coming in with more education, certs, etc that was obtained prior to being paid.
And who writes the NFPA standards. Professional who don't understand the hardships people face
One thing that has stood out to me was what one of our prevention officers said when I was newly hired. It was about fire codes in particular, but the same thing can be applied to NFPA standards.
"Such standards are written with a special ink consisting of ashes, blood, and tears. Written on paper that was created by history, hazards, and reality."
In a sense that is where such standards come from, it comes from learning from the past so that mistakes are not repeated. Yeah such standards can be viewed as "asking too much", but seriously if one thinks too much is being asked, then perhaps this is not a job one should be doing.
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In the end, though, if I'm on a call, it's no good to tell a member of the public that I intend to provide a sub-standard response to this particular emergency because I'm just a volunteer.
And on the flip side of that is that these are such standards in place and something that elected officials need to realize when looking to replace career FF's with volunteers as a money savings issue. Before asking for volunteers to step up, they should realize what is being asked so that responses don't become sub-standard.
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It's the incident and the customer expecations that ask more from whomever responds, not the department.
The department is just passing the message along.
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Permalink Reply by Vic Silverfish on
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The job requires a set of skills and proficiency that are independant of your payscale. If we need to train volunteers to a higher level, I'm all for that. The problem becomes that training is often very hard to come by, and advanced training is almost never available. The career guys are fine with this, less volly's mean more union members. The vollys are constantly fighting each other for training, because it is a scarce resrorce.
My solution: make volunteer firefighting the same as the military reserves. Weekly drill nights can replace the weekend a month, a couple weeks of acadamy in the summer for additional training and refinement. Your job treats it the same as military service, so they have to grant leave. The cost savings of training and equiping the vollyes will far exceed even a skeleton crew of paid guys. the paid staff can be extended by staffing stations at night and weekends with vollys, so the taxpayer gets a break.
This probably won't work in a lot of areas, but it's food for thought.
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Permalink Reply by E.J. on
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I say "No". There's so much you learn from training, but it has to be proper training. There's no substitute.
It is hard, and I'm speaking from personal experience. I'm in my upper 30's, married, and 3 kids. I joined less than a year ago. I am going thru FF1 plus we train every week. It's tough with work, Scouts, life, etc. My family has probably made more sacrifices than I have so I can do this. But we knew what was expected going in and we all talked about it and made the commitment together. That was a big thing.
As far as the level of experience, is everyone at your day job a manager? I would guess no. I know it's not "apples to apples", but having people at various levels can be a good thing. I can't pack up and go into a working fire, but myself and others at my level or juniors can hit the hydrant, stage tools, etc. Training so that everyone can understand the big picture and having officers that can recognize the resources at hand is key.
The important part is to actively recruit so that as guys gain experience and can take on more critical tasks, there are people to replace them. It works at my job and seems to work at the dept.
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Permalink Reply by Just Plain Craig Moyer on
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Last comment becauae I love reading what you guys write.
Required training - basic FF skills = a must I can understand the need for that. When I managed a Wendys I cross trained because I wanted people to know what the other person was doing so they can all work together.
Vehicle Rescue - a must because we all respond to accidents no matter where we are.
EMS - even basic training shouldn't be required. I've known great FF who didn't like dealing with blood. If you want to take if not don't.
Haz-mat - How much training would really be involed to handle a haz-mat incident. We have the state response unit. The most we ever done on our own was handle fuel spills. Anything else is handled by the state response team, we are only used for support. So should everyoned be required to take a haz-mat course or just know how to put up the equipment and throw oil dry? What if your department only handles 2-3 calls a year or every other year. I've known departments that have only handled fuel leaks and nothing bigger.
Special Ops - high angle - Colllapse - others, only if your company responds to these on a regular basis. or really I beleive it should be a special teams for people that reallt want to do the training.
Most people work 40-50 hours a week, Sleep 56 hours on average, getting ready, to and from work, eating dinner and breakfast say 17 hours leaves 52 hours...oh wait yard work and spending time with family 24 hours, leave 28 hours. Even by my own calculations it seems like a lot. But anyone with a family and home knows how times gets eaten up with others things. We know fire schools is alwaus scheduled on that one day the wife wanted to do something or the kids have a game.
but many people have made good arguements for more training.,
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Permalink Reply by Bill Carlisle on
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many great points have been voiced for more training here as i read every ones comments , I too agree as a volunteer myself that training is something that needs to be done on a routine basis , with the new bail out systems for interior crews to basic ladder use as volunteers we do not use this stuff every day but when we need it we better know how to do it and do it safely.
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Permalink Reply by Mark Oomkes on
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Bingo, very well stated!
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