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02-17-11 LAFD Roof Collapse Injures FF's - What can we learn from this?
What was first thought to be a simple initial structure response fire for a single family dwelling ended up being not what normal folks consider to be a single family dwelling but a 6,000 square foot sprinklered structure with drop ceilings and... two basement floors.
After extinguishing the initial exterior fire adjacent by the fireplace, the fire communicated with the interior, running through the first floor walls and eventually making a run through the attic with fire venting through the roof.
Ceilings were pulled with additional engine and truck companies requesting long pike poles to pull down ceilings to expose the attic. Without warning, the words "Emergency Traffic" was repeated (3x) three-times followed by the radio traffic, "firefighter's are trapped, self-extrication going on right now".
This fire's cause is unknown at the time of this post but the cause of the roof collapse has been determined to be from the fire sprinklers that resulted in a large "chunk" of ceiling falling on the firefighters. This incident should serve as a reminder for all of us the hidden dangers involving sprinklered buildings. We need to preplan and factor into the tactics all residences that have fire sprinklers into our run books. A large body of fire in an attic coupled with installed plastic sprinkler piping that is charged with water led to massive amounts of water flooding the attic area, which was masked by a completely involved attic area with fire running through the first floor walls.
When dealing with structures as large as a the one involved in this incident, tactics and manpower needs are significantly impacted. You can appreciate the complexity of this incident by noting the key components of a successful mitigation that included:
• establishing a safety officer
• identifying a staging area for incoming resources
• providing a rehab area for firefighters
• EMS on standby for the structure fire
• use of an identified Emergency Traffic Radio Protocol and Emergency Description
This was a tragic event that I pray goes well for the Captain from Engine 97. Take the time to honor this veteran firefighter by looking at your large residences to ensure knowledge of any installed residential sprinkler systems. Learning from this event, factoring in the "potential" for compromised sprinkler systems and the weight of the water may not be able to be prevented but... we at least have more awareness now.
CBz
When dealing with structures as large as a the one involved in this incident, tactics and manpower needs are significantly impacted. You can appreciate the complexity of this incident by noting the key components of a successful mitigation that included:
• establishing a safety officer
• identifying a staging area for incoming resources
• providing a rehab area for firefighters
• EMS on standby for the structure fire
• use of an identified Emergency Traffic Radio Protocol and Emergency Description
This was a tragic event that I pray goes well for the Captain from Engine 97. Take the time to honor this veteran firefighter by looking at your large residences to ensure knowledge of any installed residential sprinkler systems. Learning from this event, factoring in the "potential" for compromised sprinkler systems and the weight of the water may not be able to be prevented but... we at least have more awareness now.
CBz
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by FETC on
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Captain BzY,
My thoughts and prayers to the E-97 Captain, crew and families. I know I want to know more about this. Was this a municipal supplied residential sprinkler system with (unlimited) water source? Was it a deep well with pump (another unlimited) water source? or was this a isolated pump and tank system stored in the attic?.
There is a false sense of security among us with residential sprinkler systems... and their potential for still having big fires. We must all remember they are only designed to allow the civilian occupants time to escape an interior fire. They do absolutely nothing for fires burning "outside in" or the fire that travels via the "interior voids, chases" etc.
These McMansions usually have lightweight TGI or box truss floor and roof support systems, so the "upper class" occupants can have some really big, open floor spans. Residential sprinklers do very little when fire breaches the wallboard and finds it's way through essentially a horizontal balloon frame home.
I have a program I deliver on the modern lightweight, platform constructed - "the modern balloon frame hazard"
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Permalink Reply by Mike Schlags (Captain Busy) Retd on
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Growing up in Los Angeles, everything is connected to a municipal water supply... unlimited water... On one side of these house, the side with the view on the hillside, you can clearly see from a helicopter view that the house is three stories. From the A side of the building, you can only see one-story, leaving the two other floors below grade or "basement" level, dug into the hillside.
Listening to the 33-minute audio tape, your comments and teachings here on the FFN are totally validated. The fire started on the exterior, by the fireplace and communicated to the interior with fire making runs initially through the walls that led to involvement in the attic. With the drop ceiling filled with water, coupled with interior ops using long pike poles, a large chunk of ceiling (and a lot of water) came crashing down on the interior firefighters including the four-member crew from LAFD E-97.
These folks were by no means part-time firefighters but in my opinion, some of the best trained and equipped firefighters in the world. To not take advantage of learning the importance of building construction, sprinkler systems and the other systems involved with fixed facilities is ensuring failure on the fireground. Remember, the folks involved in this incident were very competent firefighters with years of experience. Learn from this tragedy and challenge yourself to understand fully the hazards associated with the new balloon frame construction that we see far to often.
No one cares more about you than you...
CBz
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Well said CBz, I agree that your LAFD comrades are very compotent and well trained. I myself did not listen nor watch any of the video footage before replying. I just happen to have alot of knowledge on the building construction side of modern McMansions and very intimate with residential sprinkler systems.
A prime example that we all most be on top of the ever changing world we now live in.
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Having access to local television stations, including those from Los Angeles, I am providing additional photos to better describe the structure, and for your use as a fire instructor.
Single story structure from the street, but actually the top floor with two subterranean basements.
LAFD firefighters pulling down the ceiling to gain access to the involved attic fire.
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Permalink Reply by Jay Nicholson on
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Not to jump the gun. This investigation is still in a very early stage. I've heard reports that the sprinkler piping melted. This doesn't surprise me. PEX, or crosslinked polyethylene, is approved for installation in this state I believe as of 1 Jan.
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I look forward to learning what the LAFD investigators find out about the reported melted sprinklers. Out of the many incidents that I have either responded to or read about, this one stands out because while we preach using sprinklers, we also assume and trust that fire and building codes are written to prevent this type of failure.
Having some Uniform Fire Code writing experience, I would not be surprised to see LAFD and the Southern California Fire Prevention Officer's Association rewriting the code language to include "scuppers" like commercial building roofs to prevent overloads from sprinkler system failures causing this type of structural collapse. I'm also surprised that the flowing water was not picked up as a trouble alarm, sounding some sort of audible warning. I'm trusting you to comment back on that point Jay. I'm not as current in the code as I used to be... CBz
Scupper: A scupper is an opening in the side walls of an open-air structure, for purposes of draining water. They are usually placed at or near ground level, and allow rain or liquids to flow off the side of the open-air structure, instead of pooling within the walls.
There are two main kinds of scupper:
1. Sailing ships would have scuppers at deck level, to allow for ocean or rainwater drainoff
2. Buildings with railed rooftops can construct scuppers to let rainwater drain off, instead of pooling within the railing of the roof. Scuppers can also be placed in a parapet, for the same purpose.
The transitive verb "to scupper" (British) means to overwhelm or destroy.
Examples:
Two scuppers cut into either side of this outdoor stairwell prevent water from building up and making the stairs slippery.
What do you know about parapet roofs and scuppers?
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Cap(ret): All of the residential sprinkler systems I've seen do not have FD connections. Once one head goes off I believe it would be impossible for anyone to be aware of additional heads going off or a failure of the piping.
The building industry is a VERY powerful lobby. They will fight to keep their costs as low as possible. Even though the state was able to get sprinklers in every new home, builders were able to get plastic piping approved to keep their labor/material cost low. I doubt this will be the last time we hear of a sprinkler line failure due to melting.
The city of LA is unique in this state in that it tends to write/approve their own building codes. It wouldn't surprise me to see a change in the city/county because of this LODD. The city here though is run by spineless a******* and I doubt even a mass LODD would bring about any change.
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Unfortunately, your words just might be spot on. I sure hope not... This is a huge issue that no one has addressed yet. As I shared above, simple scuppers could be added to an attic space for this emergency situation. You would think the insurance lobby would be fully supportive considering the losses would be reduced significantly. We can all just wait and watch LAFD once again take the lead and handle this problem. Everyone else can simply follow their them.
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Permalink Reply by Julia Miller on
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Spineless assholes would be an understatement. Councilmen Greig Smith, my my councilmember has been pushing for cuts in the fire dept budget for the past several years. Well tomorrow morning he is going to get a nice call from me asking me if he is proud that now, as I had previous predicted to him when he first wanted to make those cuts that it would cost a "firefighter" their life. Score: Me-1 Greig-0. And he is a zero just like his "heir apparent" Mitch Englander. Folks, if you live here in SoCal and in LA City for that matter and in the district that Greig Smith has run, please, I don't care if you vote for Santa Claus as a write in, but please don't vote for Mitch Englander. It will be more of the same and we will lose more people, that much I can guarantee. I was right this time. I don't want to be right anymore. That next person could be my son, who is going through CPAT and will be going to private academy with the next 6 months. I also plan on going to all council meetings especially when the budget for the fire department is concerned. Why does it take 276 people to run the mayor's office? Seriously. 276? I go into physician offices all the time as a practice management specialist and reduce costs, upgrade equipment and make the offices profitable. Give ma a crack at city hall. Wanna bet I couldn't make that place profitable if given the reins. Problem is they don't want that type of crack down. They want business as usual.
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Update: According to the Los Angeles City Fire Department, Firefighter Glenn Allen's his funeral is scheduled for Feb. 25 at the Cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels in downtown Los Angeles.
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I had no idea and had to look up this "elected" official. Here's what I found for those unaware of what LAFD is going through... Additionally, read the words carefully, you may need to reflect back on this when it comes time to prevent this from occurring with your department.
LA City Councilman Greig Smith Closes Fire Stations in Valley Puts LAFD in Harms Way!
August 15, 2010
Councilman Greig Smith won’t admit his decision will lead to loss of life.
So officially it’s called a brownout, What exactly does that mean?
Here is the translation the LA City Council deny.
A Brownout amounts to the temporary closing of a Fire Station, It directly translates into an increase in response time, in an emergency be it a Fire or a Medical Emergency seconds are critical.
In Los Angeles we have tactically located fire stations around the city in order to have firemen and paramedics on duty 24/7 to respond to calls for service.
The LA City Council has slashed the budget, plain and simple, it told the Fire Department they needed to cut millions from the budget this after voter approved bonds to build new stations in order to ensure public safety and reduce response time that directly amounts to saving lives.
When a child drowned in Bel Air, the fire Department wouldn’t directly blame brownouts on the loss of life, now after two teens perished and the LAFD still attempts to keep political dialogue with our leaders they can’t point the blame on the Council or the Mayor, But It Is Obvious!
Drowning victims increase the chances of survival every second is vital, stroke and heart attack victims could suffer severe brain damage, drowning victims could die and children could perish in fires, and fire fighters are put into harms way, this is a reality we can not let our City Council pass off as a PR stunt the Threat is Real.
Grieg Smith claims to represent the Valley, but when all the cards are on the table the fact remains he voted for the budget that closed fire stations, laid off workers, and furloughed 911 operators, this is something he proudly demanded that had to be done, yet when people die and his constituents demand answers he is in full denial, Public Safety advocate ? Please.
I ask, if you were the one trapped in a burning building would you want your fire department nearby to save you or would you not mind the extended response time? Here are some facts!
FACT: Irreversible brain damage can occur within four to six minutes of submersion.
FACT: Reducing response times from 15 to five minutes or less could almost double the survival rate for cardiac arrest not witnessed by the responding crew. (2)
FACT: Early bystander rescue breathing or CPR intervention and fast emergency medical services response are therefore essential in improving survival rates.
FACT: Rochester, Minn knows, for example, that the people who are saved are shocked on average within 5 minutes 30 seconds. It also knows that those victims who were not saved were not shocked until, on average, 6 minutes 42 seconds after the 911 call was received.
LA City Firefighters will respond to calls for service, they won’t back down in harms way, and this is where the problems arise, short staffed firefighters risking their own lives could find themselves overwhelmed quickly at the scene of a Fire, they put lives on the line and they should have all of the support they require when they are doing so.
It is undeniable that our Fire Department has no problem putting out any fire, rescuing people from burning buildings, or answering calls for help when the bell rings, if you have any doubt follow them on Twitter @lafd See for yourself the response just because it doesn’t make the 6 o’clock news doesn’t mean that on a Daily basis they aren’t fighting fires and effecting rescues don’t let our city council hamper the bravest public servants of this city.
Pat McOsker, president of United Firefighters of Los Angeles City, has warned for months that the budget cuts are needlessly putting the public at risk and other then a few words of concern or sending items to committee the LA City Council has directly reduced the funding that the Fire Chief has to work with.
Reducing the number of firefighters to respond by almost a hundred is the only option left to them.
Although I have been somewhat critical in the past of the LAFD not having a small force of reserve firefighters to assist in emergencies the simple fact remains we need our brave Firemen on duty to save lives and fight fires we deserve nothing less then a fully staffed department.
Although a budget dollar may be saved, it could be your life or that of a loved one that is the true cost.
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But wait, this guy has done even more damage!
San Fernando Valley Cuts LAFD Hazardous Materials team courtesy of Councilman Greig Smith and Mitch Englander
August 19, 2010 at 9:40
Los Angeles Fire Department faced another budget setback as they have been forced to remove the Only Hazardous Materials Response crew from service to the San Fernando valley.
With major factories, junkyards, airports and transportation corridors in the San Fernando Valley Grieg Smith and his Chief of Staff Mitch Englander have failed to provide the funding needed to keep Fire Stations open, and have resulted in the Only Hazardous Materials Response Team to be removed from service.
San Fernando Valley is roughly 260 square miles and home to nearly two million people, It is larger then Philadelphia, it has two Airports, Burbank Airport which borders the City of Los Angeles and Van Nuys Airport. Major oil distribution pipe lines & several major Rail lines running through it, and it has the 405, 5, and 101 Freeways which are some of the busiest in the world and the San Andreas fault also runs right through the San Fernando valley.
Removing crews trained to handle these specific fire emergencies put’s the community at risk as well as our first responders, you can’t expect to throw together people at a moments notice and hope for the best when dealing with the threats we face today.
Mitch Englander is the Chief of Staff and has failed to say a critical word about his partner Councilman Greig Smith instead he has supported the budget and finance decisions he has made, and he want’s to represent the very same council district he has helped put in harms way, from closing fire stations and removing hazardous materials response crews.
When will politicians and wanna be politicians learn, you can’t take from the public and then peddle for their votes?
We will not forget how you voted to risk our brave fireman’s lives and our very own in order to fund gang prevention programs or keep the lights on at the park at midnight. We all make choices and CD 12 has made some bad ones.
Take note of our politicians failures and remember them at the ballot box.
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