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NFPA Regs and Apparatus Cost
With the NFPA guidance and regulations regarding compliance with new safety laws and matters of that sort, there are quite a few problems developing with rising costs of apparatus that are making good trucks difficult to afford.
I the case of my company, which just purchased a brand new 2010 4-Guys pumper at $480,000, we found a great deal of difficulty trying to make room in the budget (which included a heavily relied on $275,000 federal grant) for the bells & whistles that the NFPA required. Our company is a volunteer fire company that runs a lot of calls in a township that does not have a fire tax or charge per call. We do not make a lot of liquid. capitol. Things like seatbelt alarms, lighting requirements, reflective chevrons on the truck's rear (etc.) all costs money; money that could actually be used for tools and gear.
So, where is the line drawn in dealing with the the NFPA's creation of costly regulations at the sacrifice of valuable and effective firefighting equipment?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by CHIEF NORMAN on
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Well John unless you have something in your City code, or ordinances that says you have to follow NFPA you don’t have to because all they are is guidelines, there not laws...The only thing they do is protect you in a court of law if something was to happen. In most cases and I'm not speaking for all but if its a custom cab and not a commercial cab your city can sign off on it and not have it installed, but something you got to understand all the things you have mentioned are all for your safety and your brothers or sisters that are beside you, its just like the tools and gear you spoke of they all have there place in the fire industry. There is a reason for everything, and just like anything else it took something major to get the manufactures to make a change that you speak of for the good, and in this case your alarms, lighting requirements, reflective chevrons, ect you pay for....You never know brother John someday these things you speak of that might not rate high on your need scale might just save your life. Good luck and be safe out there!!!!
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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"Our company is a volunteer fire company that runs a lot of calls in a township that does not have a fire tax or charge per call."
I don't think the NFPA safety requirements are your problem. In this case, the community is setting themselves up to get what they pay for. If they're not paying enough to maintain the needed level of fire protection, then they'll get exactly what they pay for.
I appreciate your concern, but what is more important - the lives, health, and safety of you and your fellow firefighters while responding, or something else that doesn't get used on every call like the rig does?
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Permalink Reply by Oldman on
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While I'm not sure what kind of apparatus you spent 480K on, I am wondering whether your department couldn't have left off some of the "bells and whistles" and still met the NFPA criteria. Each departments requirements are different, but maybe the truck could have been scaled back some.
We recently purchased a Pierce Contender commercial chassis for just under 300K. It didn't come with all the bells and whistles or even a good time radio. But it does meet the current NFPA specs, and we don't have to carry the water on our backs. Even with the standards being met, the additional "requirements" only added another 5K.
Any reputable manufacturer including Pierce will build the truck to your specs. If you choose not too follow all of the NFPA guidelines, and the company wants your business, they'll build it. You might need to sign a waiver of liability, but it's doable.
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Permalink Reply by EngineLadder on
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Not
For
Practical
Application
I must say though that the helmet holders on the engines at work are great for holding boxes of medical gloves.
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Permalink Reply by Chris Weber on
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I know where your coming from here.There has to be a balance between cost and safety.Our dept. is a small,rural dept.which also has no fire tax or charge for calls.It's a constant battle to keep costs in line without sinking us and getting what we need.We bought a new engine 10 years ago and we're still paying on it with probably another 2 years of payments to go.As soon as it is paid off we need to replace our pumper/tanker which is 25 years old.(refurbed in '97)We are trying to do some long range planning now to be able to do it without getting stuck in another situation where it will take 12 or 13 years to get it paid for.Like I say,for us it's a constant battle.
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Permalink Reply by John Karl Ambrusch, III on
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I understand and agree with you whole heartedly. However, an observation must be made.
The NFPA feels that it's their duty to institute the guidelines that dictate how safety will be enforced. That is because those issues are not being properly addressed on the fireground or in a response to the fireground. NIOSH makes their investigations quite thoroughly and everybody knows that if a Chief officer so much as rives an apparatus or kicks a charged hose line in an active fireground, that's a big no-no because they are perceived as performing a firefighter's job and therefore neglecting command duties. The NFPA institutes these "regulations", often times, based upon those reports.
Now, in the example that you've cited, the NFPA institutes these costly measures which are designed to assure some level of credible, litigatory protection in the courtroom. There are officers and firefighters out there that need to realize that they have a responsibility to themselves ad their fellow firefighters to enforce safety regardless of their position or rank. Perhaps more training should be dedicated to safety on the fireground.
Nobody can tell me that spending $1200 on reflective chevrons the back of a truck saves firefighters when the general public knows well enough what all of the blinking red lights mean. I find it hard to believe that the NFPA needs to dictate that new apparatus should have $3000.00 worth of seatbelt alarms installed because the vehicles officer doesn't check themselves.
Safety is the responsibility of EVERY firefighter.
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Permalink Reply by John E Badjar Sr on
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I agree some times NFPA goes a little to far but we don't police are selfs. Shop around I have purchased 8 trucks in my 25 years and to keep cost down with the extras I look around and talk to the different builders. I know have 4 truck built by Freedom Fire Appartus. They range from brush to 3000 gal tenders. My county has purchased 18-20 trucks from them in the last 10 years. The cost is cheap but the product is great. I'm loking in the next 3 years a purchasing twin pumpers and have already started talking to them. Let me say I'm cheif of a small county dept. 33 members, 3 pumper, 4 3000gal tender, 2 brush, 1air truck, 2rescues. Any questions go to my page and look at the pictures.
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"The NFPA institutes these "regulations", often times, based upon those reports." Actually, the NFPA arrives at consensus standards based on interaction between the committee members for a particular standard or set of standards. There are manufacturers, standards and codes organization representatives, end-users, and technical experts on almost all NFPA committees. I'm fortunate to work with three NFPA committee members (one a committee chairman) and they don't go to the meetings to try to make our job more expensive. They try to make it safer, more professional, and more scientific.
"Nobody can tell me that spending $1200 on reflective chevrons the back of a truck saves firefighters when the general public knows well enough what all of the blinking red lights mean."
I disagree. The flashing lights are difficult to pick out against some backgrounds, particularly when there are lots of auto brake lights in play at MVAs at night. The reflective chevrons are much easier to see in some light conditions than the flashing lights.
"I find it hard to believe that the NFPA needs to dictate that new apparatus should have $3000.00 worth of seatbelt alarms installed because the vehicles officer doesn't check themselves." I don't, particularly when some officers don't wear their seatbelts or don't enforce seatbelt wear among their crew. Then there are the problems with the old-style seatbelts that - amazingly - are too short to go around a firefighter wearing turnout gear because they are simply automotive seat belts adapted to fire apparatus.
Safety is indeed the responsibility of every firefighter, but unfortunately, not every firefighter is responsible about safety.
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Permalink Reply by Bill Anderson on
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I agree about the seatbelts. We have two engines, a Freightliner and an International, and the rear seat belts are too short. We have the SCBA seats that sit almost straight up. If you are wearing full bunker gear either prepare to sit motionless and take really shallow breaths, or take your chances and not buckle up.
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Permalink Reply by Eric B on
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My Companys Brand New Engine from 4 guys total cost being NFPA compliant was around $850,000
Engine 5311
2010 Spartan Gladiator / 4 Guys / 65' Snozzle
Cummins 450 hp ISM Engine / Allison EVS 4000 automatic transmission
Hale QTW0150-23L two stage pump / Hypro Foam Pro System
960 gal. UPF Poly Water Tank / 30 gal. Class A Foam Tank
Harrison Generator / 2 Hannay Electric Reels
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