The Social Network & Community JUST for Firefighters
Emissions for 2010
What are your thoughts on the upcoming NFPA emission changes? Urea is going to be added to all apparatus to help burn cleaner. Are any of you converting yet and how expensive is this really going to be for us? Buying a new truck seems to get harder and harder every year.
Replies to This Discussion
-
Permalink Reply by J Whaley on
-
Cat had a version of the decarboning cycle that had an option for the engineer to override it - specifically so you dont start a brush fire under your rig. I think that's a good idea....but I'm also not surprised that they're looking at getting out of the over-the-road market. So expensive to comply these days, and they already have a great business in prime mover gensets and heavy equipment anyway. In a lot of places vertical exhausts can take care of the heat issues, but for my location they just cause exhaust to cool too rapidly which causes catalytic converter clogging and a carbony spatter on our rigs....nasty stuff to remove.
I'm spec'ing out 4 new ambulances built on Spartan Gladiator chassis. They're going to be big and spendy, but also have a loooong duty life due to their location (and look just AWESOME but that's a different issue). We couldn't even get engineering drawings on our rigs until a couple of weeks ago, because Cummins hadn't released their engineering information to Spartan until a couple of weeks before that. Anyone buying apparatus this year is going to spend more, and likely wait longer. There are also some significant issues around exhaust modifications - essentially, you can't make them without OEM manufacturing design approval. So when you combine that with design issues on apparatus, it makes for increased costs and delays. I dont yet have a good handle on the cost and life cycle of the urea. Ours will have a 6 gallon tank by manufacturer spec, but I'm not sure how long that lasts. We then have the added complications of a tank heater for the urea, which causes more electrical load on the truck, etc, etc. Good thing I can get the whole thing with LEDs, otherwise the electric load would be enormous. We're already at 75% of the 2.5kw inverter.
I can appreciate clean air - and diesel exhaust is carcinogenic with enough time and concentration (though there are other factors too). But the US is pushing for diesel to meet the same emissions requirements as gas engines, and that's just an unrealistic solution. We already went from 200ppm sulfur to 15ppm sulfur, and are paying the price with increased injector pump failures. There has to be a sweet spot between unbelievable cost for technology and Mexico-City-levels of air pollution.
-
Permalink Reply by FETC on
-
Went into effect already, I think the policy was anything built new after Jan 1, 2009 we just took delivery of a new truck this week. It has the new re-gen exhaust filtration / collection system. And as far as converting, nobody I know is going to update their older fleet...
What do I think about it? well you want a new truck, then I must implement the changes...
-
Permalink Reply by Randy Bawks on
-
Just to add my two cents,as far as I know all new emission legal engines can regen and you will hardly know its doing it. All the regen process is, is making the exhaust temp. hot enough to burn carbon out of the particulate filter. If the exhaust temp. is over a specific threshold, it will regen i.e. driving down the highway or pumping at a scene. If the exhaust temp. is not high enough the vehicle will enter active regen. When this happens, fuel is injected on the exhaust stroke to "light off" the particulate filter. And yes the exhaust leaving the tailpipe is hot,but there are vents in the tailpipe to draw in cool air before it exits the tailpipe.
My day job is a diesel tech in a Ford dealership. I just took the training for our new emissions legal engine. Urea freezes a 12 degrees F,so there is a heater that is controlled by the glow plug module,so there shouldn't be much issue with the heater. The urea tank on our engine is capable of holding enough reduction fliud for one oil change interval. You will not need to convert apparatus that are already in service to be compliant,this will only affect new purchases. The only way this should affect the fire service is the increased cost in purchasing new apparatus,and the cost of the reduction fluid.
Hope this helps
-
Permalink Reply by Thomas Wood on
-
All Fire and EMS apparatus should be exempt from the EPA Diesel Emission Regulations.
We have 5 new (2009) Horton Medic Units, built on a Freightliner Chasis with Mercedes Diesel Motors.
We have 1 new (2009) Sutphen Ladder Truck with a CAT motor.
All 6 of these meet the EPA 2007 diesel motor standards and require "Regeneration".
This wasn't so bad for the first 6 months. However, as the Particulate Filters became saturated, we discovered the world of "Regeneration".
There is no gauge. An "idiot light" comes on and instructs you to "Regenerate". If you fail to do so within a specified time period the motor shuts off and will only restart at one minute intervals. Try transporting Grandma to the hospital in this mode! Try crossing I-95 from the HOV lane to the right shoulder and hoping it doesn't take longer than 60 seconds.
Now we can expect to have these 6 units "Out of Service" every couple of days for 30 to 45 minutes at a time.
We have established a new Computer Aided Dispatch (CAD) Code for Regeneration Activity, so we can track it better and so the Battalion Chiefs know why the units are out of service.
On Saturday, Truck 4 was "Out of Service" for over 2 hours and the process never completed. The unit was towed to a repair shop and hooked to their computer, which corrected the problem and allowed the Regeneration process to complete.
For a short term solution, I have suggested replacing the particulate filters with new ones and sending the originals out to be refurbished. The local CAt representative tells us they are not available for purchase!!!
I can't wait for my whole fleet to have these wonderful system!!!
The IAFC should take this issue seriously and petition the Federal EPA to exempt Fire and EMS apparatus, in the same fashion that military vehicles were exempted.
This insanity needs to stop before lives are lost!
You are welcome to post your comments here or contact me (see below).
Thomas R. Wood, CFO, Fire Chief
Boca Raton Fire Rescue Services
6500 Congress Avenue, Suite 200
Boca Raton FL 33487
561-982-4040
twood@ci.boca-raton.fl.us
-
-
I just finished specs on new engine-chassis ambulances. Our temperatures require extensive insulation, so I included an additional 12v tank heater on the urea tank. -50F has a way of causing problems with the urea we are betting....
It will also be interesting to see how regeneration may affect us in comparison to your findings Chief - we replace catalytic converters annually due to plugging. With extended idle times in extreme low temps, our cat converters plug up, resulting in a limp-mode of sorts, where we can't exceed 35mph due to exhaust backpressure. Part of that is likely due to the vertical exhaust on our F650 chassis trucks, that the exhaust cools too much on the way out then condenses some and drips back in. We're hopeful that regeneration may actually reduce some problems, but are aware that the temperatures we work in may compound it. The good news is that when regeneration comes on, we're unlikely to harm much, as most of our surfaces are hardpack gravel.
overall I do agree with Chief Wood, that emergency apparatus, just like military, should be exempt. We make up such a small portion of diesel engines nationwide that our impact is low, and our mission critical nature requires adequate response. Yet again, an example of the law of unintended consequences.
-
Permalink Reply by Vic Silverfish on
-
My Gods, every time an environmental law changes, we get the same chorus of doomsayers. The same thing happened when they banned DDT, CFCs, Sulpher oxides (for acid rain), leaded gas, etc, etc, etc. There will be a short period of adjustment, followed by no one noticing the new kit. On the plus side, the bunkroom will no longer have a layer of exhaust crud on everything.
On a related note, do you really want emergency vehicles to have a non-compliant engine (and therefore a different set of parts) from every other diesel in your town?
-
-
if the emissions components are add-ons, then they wouldn't be much issue taken off the engine. If your mandate is interfered with by regulation, then either the regulation must be modified (repeal, exemption, modification, etc), or your mandate must change. Most municipalities are already struggling with firefighter layoffs - they will be very unlikely to add more personnel and apparatus to handle EPA required regeneration on diesel engines. This is not doomsaying, it's math. If your vehicles are going out of service due to regeneration problems, then either you need to accept a decreased ability to provide services during those times (regen = longer responses from other districts), or you need to change your ability to respond during those times (more personnel and apparatus, and an increased budget to support it). It's a binary option, and best decided locally. If your ambulance goes out of service due to regen, and there's a fatality, all the family's going to care about is that you weren't there - not that you were compliant with a federal law.
-
-
Vic,
We installed PlymoVent Systems in our fire stations many years ago to deal with the diesel contamination indoors.
If these systems had gauges and we could schedule and limit the units that are out of service at any given time...it wouldn't be so bad. imagine having a fuel tank with only one idiot light that says you must refill in the next 5 miles, instead of a gauge.
We have already had occassions when multiple units have been down for regeneration at the same time.
In the emergency business, we need to depend on our apparatus. These systems reduce that reliability and cause response delays and patient transport delays.
And yes I want emergency vehicles to be the same as military. I can't imagine a "time out on the battlefield" while the Army trucks regenerate...why are we tolerating a non-scheduled "time outs while fires are burning and the citizens are having medical emergencies"?
Tom Wood
-
-
J Whaley,
Have you determined where you can go to refill the urea tank?
I am not aware of any urea dispensing in south Florida.
Tom Wood
-
Permalink Reply by Oldman on
-
Your maintenance people can purchase urea at many auto parts stores. Prices that I have looked at range from about $25 per gallon jug, to almost $300 for 55 gallon barrel. I haven't found any fill sites in Texas yet.
-
-
our fleet shop will be handling it - I work in northern Alaska, and we have to be pretty self-sufficient.
-
-
Ben,
The "override" will only work for a limited time. At some point either the motor power will be reduced or as in our case, the motor will shut down and only restart in one minute intervals. This is a bad thing when your vehicle is in the inside HOV lane of a busy highway and you loose all your power.
Tom Wood
- ‹ Previous
- 1
- 2
- 3
- Next ›
© 2024 Created by Firefighter Nation WebChief.
Powered by
