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OSHA "Burns" Another Fire Department
Here is an article on Jackson County Oregon Fire District No. 3 on how they are going to use a safer method to fight fires-PPV. See link: http://kdrv.com/news/local/121891
Now; here is the irony: after three firefighters were injured at a live burn training fire in April, some two months before the news article, they are being cited by OSHA for violations! See link: http://www.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090917/NEWS...
Hmmm. So, after they had their training that injured three firefighters WITHOUT PPV, they are now going to use PPV?
Call me crazy, but shouldn’t they get the BASICS down first before they tackle something like PPV?
I guess I’m just a sentimentalist at heart.
TCSS.
Art
Now; here is the irony: after three firefighters were injured at a live burn training fire in April, some two months before the news article, they are being cited by OSHA for violations! See link: http://www.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090917/NEWS...
Hmmm. So, after they had their training that injured three firefighters WITHOUT PPV, they are now going to use PPV?
Call me crazy, but shouldn’t they get the BASICS down first before they tackle something like PPV?
I guess I’m just a sentimentalist at heart.
TCSS.
Art
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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Absolutely get the basics down first. It seems as though, from the short news blurp, PPA is going to be the way to go. I took a class for positive pressure attack and did learn a lot as well as I saw some misconceptions I had proven wrong. That said, positive pressure attack is another tool and should not just be a set standard and used everytime. There are also basic points to take into consideration in order for positive pressure to be effective.
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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on
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Jim;
No joke and I don't want to be overly critical.
The OSHA report does a good job of that.
What I can't understand is that; just two months after a serious training incident, the department is adopting PPV to "improve" firefighter safety.
If they had followed NFPA 1403, that would go a long ways towards "improving" their safety.
Why didn't they just shop around for different turnout gear?
You know; the kind that won't burn up in a "training" fire.
Only in the year of firefighter safety!
TCSS.
Art
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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There you go using that common sense again, Art.
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Permalink Reply by Padre Pete on
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Dear Jackson County guys, I'm sorry for what happened and is happening to you. Yes, "it could have happened to anyone." My first rule in the seemingly unquenchable debate over professional firefighters (career or volunteer) VS no-professional firefighters (career or volunteer) is this: "Never give the enemy any ammunition." How better to arm critics than to allow a situation that results in proof that you were actually not prepared ? In a recent local heated debate some were arguing that NYS is hovering so closely over us, with its extreme requirements governing "live burns", that we no longer have opportunities for our trainees to "feel the heat" the way we always have with abandon houses in the past. I submit that such rules are not created by some sophmore state employee hired to help build the beauracracy. They are created by knowledgeable and experienced people who have felt the need to defend us against ourselves out of respect for the fact that our most safety conscious people are not always the ones promoted to positions of responsibility. They may also be doing it out of respect for our brothers, like the ones in Oregon, who were only hurt and for the "Explorer" who was killed in a drill because some irresponsible auld pharts thought some high schooler would somehow benefit from "feeling the heat". The list of LDDs at drills is a long one. There can be no such thing as being over prepared. Those who have a serious problems with governments dictating policies, must alter their expectaions of live burn drills or they could volunteer to get out of the way.
With the hope that my first 48 years may have been the roughest, I remain at your service. Pete
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Permalink Reply by Fireyladd - Retired Chief Sharp on
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Side issue after this is they are looking to hire a new training Officer. Hummmm? Something smells fishy?
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Permalink Reply by Rusty Mancini on
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Art, I just don't get it ! With all the information available in today's world of this unforgiven business there is no excuse for this to keep happening.Yes Art, BASICS----BASICS----BASICS----FIRST! PPV if applied correctly works well,but why put the cart before the horse !
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Chief, your post title is more abut what this says to me. OSHA "Burns another Fire Department". Knowing background on this agency and its commitment to training and safety. Plus the history of OSHA in Oregon I would say this was an example of lets use an incident to impose a fine and make a example of an agency. OSHA dosnt work from a role of common sense. We all know that its hot in there. We all have done live fire burns for more years then we can forget. The reason we do them is to train and EXPOSE our newer people to the heat and fire that they may not see very often in the REAL WORLD. Problem is, what we do IS very dangerous and the potential is for someone to get to hot or burned. No doubt there were mistakes made here. They recognized the mistakes and exposed them to outside scrutiny. The fact that OSHA fined them and cited several problems only added insult to injury as they always do. These people have no idea what we do or how we do it. They adopt standards that are based on Certain safety ideas. However, common sense isnt one of them. We can all throw stones. Especially after the fact and with little information. However, none of us including OSHA were there. What good does it do to fine someone. It doesnt change what happened. I believe the mistakes should be identified and corrected. They acknowledged their mistakes and made corrective measures to fix them. Cite OSHA for being just another Government bureaucracy with their hands open for money. Who needs them? Better to use them to start your "burn to learns". Plenty of fat to get the fire started.
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Chief Sharp:
I get your sentiments.
Unfortunately, this is the governmental agency that oversees worker safety, worker injuries and worker deaths.
Jackson County wouldn't have had a problem, had it not been for the multiple injured. The federal standard states that if three or more are treated at the emergency room for injuries that are sustained from a single incident, then it must be reported to OSHA.
Now; I always thought that the injured had to be ADMITTED to the hospital to count. But guess what; when you are treated in the emergency room; technically, you are admitted.
As far as the details of what happened and why it happened, you will note that I didn't speculate, other than to say that they should get their shite together on the basics before they tackle something that can go horribly wrong if not properly conducted, because with the fan, it will just burn hotter and faster if they don't know what they are doing.
The point of my post is that many departments think that OSHA won't come after them and they are wrong.
As far as it being an agency that we must be mindful of with regards to the laws, we really don't have much to say about that. I have found out that when dealing with OSHA as I do on a regular basis, it is better to use them as a resource instead of treating them like an enemy, because most of the time, you will not hear a peep out of them unless there is a big screw up; like when three firefighters go to the ER due to injuries from a "practice" burn.
But your point is well taken.
"Who needs them"? "Need" isn't the issue. The fact is: we got them, whether we like it or not.
TCSS.
Art
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Permalink Reply by FF Nick on
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Good thing they're not talking about my Jackson County Fire District down here in MS!
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To respondents:
I posted this article because: 1) It was in the news and 2) Since it mentioned firefighter safety issues and this being the year of firefighter safety, I felt it was worthy of discussion. The PPV article falls right in line with this tactics and safety forum.
No one needs to get offended, because, obviously since many of us wasn't there, we can only offer opinions, IF we have taken the time to read the articles.
Additionally, it has been pointed out by Chief Sharp that OSHA wasn't there either. As is the case with NIOSH, most of the time, they aren't there at the time of the incident. They are there AFTER the incident. They must use their forensic skills to piece together the details and make their recommendations. With OSHA, that often comes with citation and fines.
But, if these agencies aren't used for oversight and recommendations, then what would you propose as an alternative, because clearly, some departments cannot police themselves. Just to name a few, look up Lairdsville, Osceola County, Baltimore City; all training exercises where firefighters DIED.
Then tell me that we don't need either OSHA or NIOSH telling us what to do.
But, let's be civil about it and have a good discussion on this.
And for the record, I am not speaking directly to ANYONE. I am merely trying to establish a baseline so our emotions don't get the best of us.
Thanks.
TCSS.
Art
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At the risk of repeating myself, I will ask again: But, if these agencies aren't used for oversight and recommendations, then what would you propose as an alternative, because clearly, some departments cannot police themselves. Just to name a few, look up Lairdsville, Osceola County, Baltimore City; all training exercises where firefighters DIED.
Then tell me that we don't need either OSHA or NIOSH telling us what to do.
TCSS.
Art
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