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IAFF president slams Calif. 'stay-and-defend' plan
From Firerescue1
http://www.firerescue1.com/fire-news/449011-iaff-president-slams-ca...
LOS ANGELES — If stay-and-defend is the best idea California's fire chiefs can come up with to do a better job containing the state's wildfires, my frustration is exceeded only by my concern for the state's residents. Stay-and-defend — outlined in several Times news articles, most recently in the Jan. 13 story, "Southern California fire chiefs debate stay-and-defend program" — should make people run and hide.
Exploring new ideas to protect Californians from the state's increasing number of wildfires is commendable, but stay-and-defend would be a failure. The program includes asking homeowners to pretend that a government education course on fire risk would provide them sufficient training to protect themselves and their property during a wildfire, thereby requiring fewer professional firefighters to be deployed.
Hearing anyone suggest that homeowners should not get out of harm's way is appalling. Hearing a public safety professional make the suggestion is shameless. Stay-and-defend is clearly a half-baked idea from people who believe that saving money is more important than saving lives.
Further reading is available at the LA Times
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oew-schaitberger23-2009jan23...
Hearing anyone suggest that homeowners should not get out of harm's way is appalling. Hearing a public safety professional make the suggestion is shameless. Stay-and-defend is clearly a half-baked idea from people who believe that saving money is more important than saving lives.
Stay-and-defend has had limited success in the Australian bush, where the tactic has been used for some time. But it has also led to disaster, and the homesteader program would not translate to a state as populous as California.
I'm not sure where they're getting their information from, but the stay and defend programs in Australia are far from being a disaster.
Most fatalities are not from the stay and defend- they're from people blindly trying to escape after it's too late and have been caught in firestorms or blindign smoke and crashing their vehicles.
The Australian public is being very clearly taught basic principles that they can adopt to make their home safer (Block downpipes and fill gutters with water, blocking doors, radiant heat safety, etc, etc).
They're also being taught (very clearly and loudly!) that just because you call 000 (Same as the USA 911 system), will not guarantee a big red truck arriving.
They're being taught to evalauate their safety and make an early decision to evacuate or to stay and defend.
Here's a link to some of the information being made available to the public:
http://www.cfa.vic.gov.au/residents/index.htm
Feel free to check it out and make your own, informed decision....
http://www.firerescue1.com/fire-news/449011-iaff-president-slams-ca...
LOS ANGELES — If stay-and-defend is the best idea California's fire chiefs can come up with to do a better job containing the state's wildfires, my frustration is exceeded only by my concern for the state's residents. Stay-and-defend — outlined in several Times news articles, most recently in the Jan. 13 story, "Southern California fire chiefs debate stay-and-defend program" — should make people run and hide.
Exploring new ideas to protect Californians from the state's increasing number of wildfires is commendable, but stay-and-defend would be a failure. The program includes asking homeowners to pretend that a government education course on fire risk would provide them sufficient training to protect themselves and their property during a wildfire, thereby requiring fewer professional firefighters to be deployed.
Hearing anyone suggest that homeowners should not get out of harm's way is appalling. Hearing a public safety professional make the suggestion is shameless. Stay-and-defend is clearly a half-baked idea from people who believe that saving money is more important than saving lives.
Further reading is available at the LA Times
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oew-schaitberger23-2009jan23...
Hearing anyone suggest that homeowners should not get out of harm's way is appalling. Hearing a public safety professional make the suggestion is shameless. Stay-and-defend is clearly a half-baked idea from people who believe that saving money is more important than saving lives.
Stay-and-defend has had limited success in the Australian bush, where the tactic has been used for some time. But it has also led to disaster, and the homesteader program would not translate to a state as populous as California.
I'm not sure where they're getting their information from, but the stay and defend programs in Australia are far from being a disaster.
Most fatalities are not from the stay and defend- they're from people blindly trying to escape after it's too late and have been caught in firestorms or blindign smoke and crashing their vehicles.
The Australian public is being very clearly taught basic principles that they can adopt to make their home safer (Block downpipes and fill gutters with water, blocking doors, radiant heat safety, etc, etc).
They're also being taught (very clearly and loudly!) that just because you call 000 (Same as the USA 911 system), will not guarantee a big red truck arriving.
They're being taught to evalauate their safety and make an early decision to evacuate or to stay and defend.
Here's a link to some of the information being made available to the public:
http://www.cfa.vic.gov.au/residents/index.htm
Feel free to check it out and make your own, informed decision....
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Aussie_Wildfire on
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I love the idea of a buried tank. we would have to get around who changes them over and how. 45kg (100lbs) someones back might go. Radiant heat sets off propane tanks there must have been to much vegetation to close to the home. Luke why don't people listen and learn. they where all told that if they where going to leave, leave early, not when they could see the fire.
Friday they were warned, Saturday morning, yet they stayed to the last minute.
Randall's 10%/80%/10% theme
10% will do it
80% give them a chance and they will do it
10% no they won't
It works for fire/workers/theft/kids/ anything
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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on
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If you tell people to evacuate, some won't.
If you tell people to stay, some will evacuate.
Not much more can be done, except education.
Certainly with people I've had discussions with, seeing the footage has made them think properly about the whole stay or go concept.
I'm not sure if mandatory evacuations would change it- there's simply not enough feet on the ground to go from house to house to make sure people have evacuated.
Good in theory, but...
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Wildfire,
You don't exchange buried propane cylinders - you refill them in place from a delivery truck. I'll get you some photos up in the next couple of days. We just had two 1,000 gallon propane tanks installed at our Training Center, which is under construction.
We have a large number of 300-gallon, 500-gallon, and 1,000 gallon underground tanks where I work.
Ben
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Thanks ben, we call ours bullets, as when they go off. We use a cyclinder 5ft high about 18" round and weighs 45kilos (100lbs) I don't know gallons for them.
Each house has 2, they are most often safe, they vent straight up.
Ember attack and radiant heat are the ones we worry about.
I would love to put a fogging sprinkler, with honda pump, connected to the rain tank or swimming pool on all rural houses with a 30 metre vegetation clearing all around and a driveway big enough to fit our trucks (stuff the greenies) I have seen this work many times. A 80s couple had a 30ft high fire ball comming at them and the fogging system stop the flame dead, they used a 1/4 of their swimming pool water
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Ever seen the fog systems at Esso go off on their gas tanks?
Amazing! I'veheard that if you stood inside it, you can't breathe- it apparntly sucks the air out of the area??? Never tested it!
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No but it sounds great. It would have to be good to protect esso
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Permalink Reply by Tony P on
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Saturday. Saw vivid evidence of residents prtoecting their own homes. We had one pumper working to save a house from fire - the property was NOT properly prepared, but they saved it anyway. Two houses downwind were properly prepared, residents were actively working to keep them safe, this left us (the only other pumper available) free to rey and stop the fire spreading. That was hopeless, a couple of Strike Teams of Tankers (firefighting vehicles, as I always point out) that could easily work off road couldn't have done any more than we did.
Propane? Late yesterday, called to a burning shipping container (being used as a lock-up on a property. Opened a door. Interior burning hard. Propane cylinders laying over the floor. We backed off and left the thing burning - I'm not interested in BLEVE's. No real issue in leaving the container burning - the nearby house was gone. As were other outbuildings and vehicles. And the trees.
People prepare and stay and defend. Other people leave early. Still more people have no real plan (despite all the education we attempt) and panic when they see thick smoke, or hear the fire - they then madly try to escape. Lutans pictures show some of the outcomes of that practice. Bushfires move quickly, people who attempt to drive through the smoke often become disoriented, even on roads they may have know all their lives, and then crash; then the fire catches them. As police told the crew of our Tanker yesterday 'you don't need to look, just a couple of pools of stuff with human bones in them'; next to a burnt out car.
Oh, further to posts of mine somewhere or other. On Saturday my eldest son stayed to defend his home in case a fire came through. Luckily nothing came his way. This time. He knows what to do, I've been through it all with them. When the weather had gone crazy, and I was about to go to the Staion because my crew-leader wanted us there on the spot, I rang him and said it was time he started to do frequent checks for ember attack. It's all quite easy really. Just bloody nerve wracking!
PS. BLBEMT, could you find a keyboard with a shift-key please? I don't bother reading when people shout.
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PS. BLBEMT, could you find a keyboard with a shift-key please? I don't bother reading when people shout.
Have I missed something?
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When horizontal propane cylinders BLEVE, we call the resulting 3 pieces "The Rocket, The Bullet, and The Dance Floor".
The cylinder often fails along the top weld to one side of the dome, secondary to flame impingement. When the weld fails, the two half-pipes on that side flatten out in place - the Dance Floor. The end cap from that side of the cylinder becomes an unpowered projectile - the Bullet. The other end, still containing propane, essentially becomes an unguided, liquid-fueled Rocket.
Ben
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Permalink Reply by Capt.Alex Arnold on
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Lutan-
Good to hear you. I have been following the wildfires that you are having down under. I was just thinking about you and the others down there. I remember hearing from you that some of your family already dealt with some of this already. Be safe brother!
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For smaller propane tanks, how about just putting them in the swimming pool prior to the fire front getting close?
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