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2 In, 2 Out- Clarification
I've always been taught (and have taught others) that the 2 in, 2 out rule is that if 2 go in, 2 must come out.
However if I'm reading correctly of late on these forums, there's actually variations to what 2 in, 2 out means.
What is to you? Where did it come from?
However if I'm reading correctly of late on these forums, there's actually variations to what 2 in, 2 out means.
What is to you? Where did it come from?
Replies are closed for this discussion.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Paul Montpetit on
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Means 2 in 2 are outside in case they are needed to rescue the 2 in......Paul
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If you are assigned to RIT then that is ALL that you do.....Period....Hopefully you will be bored to death......Paul
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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Cap, you're correct.
A related misconception is that OSHA requires two-in, two-out for all emergency activities. That isn't accurate. The only two activities where we're required to use two-in, two-out are interior structural firefighting and hazardous materials Hot Zone (offensive, technician level) work.
An example is OSHA 29 CFR 1910. 146, the confined space entry standard. Confined space entry and rescue requires one-in, two out. It does not prohibit more than one entrant, but there must be a qualified Confined Space Supervisor and Confined Space Safety Attendant on the outside if you have even one person inside the space.
Water rescue, rope rescue, and trench rescue are examples where it may be prudent to have only one rescuer exposed to the primary hazard. If one rescuer can make a swiftwater rescue, a rope pickoff, or shore the trench, then it doesn't make sense to expose two or more rescuers to the hazard just because someone mistakenly believes that OSHA requires it.
Ben -
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That is correct. The "2-in" part of the theory is that no one is alone. Single firefighters who get in trouble may not be able to notify Command or call a Mayday. Having a second firefighter increases situational awareness, increases communications ability with the outside, and provides immediate assistance to a firefighter who gets in trouble.
The "2-out" part of the theory is that there is at least one team of two firefighters ready to enter to assist lost, disoriented, trapped, or disabled firefighters. However, "2-out" isn't the same thing as having RIT on standby...or even IRIT. An Incident Commander and a pump operator qualify as the "2-out", even if they're not prepared to conduct interior RIT operations. Remember, OSHA set the "2-in, 2-out rule", and they're not firefighters. Firefighters designed the RIT concept of operations and pending national standards. These exceed the OSHA standards by a substantial margin, and rightfully so.
Ben -
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Permalink Reply by Dewayne and Diana Bean on
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2 in the house and 2 packed up with scba's waiting to go in also this highly depends on your department and what turnout you get for fire runs
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Permalink Reply by Engine 32 Capt. on
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No Diana. I'm sorry but I have to disagree. If you don't get enough of a turn out to have 2 people outside before a crew makes entry, then they don't make entry (unless, of course, there's a rescue).
The whole purpose of the 2-in 2-out is firefighter safety, which shouldn't be compromised due to a "poor turn out". If you don't get enough people on scene, then it should be a defensive operation.
It's that kind of thinking that get's people hurt or killed. -
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Permalink Reply by roy yoder on
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yea capt. your are right on on the defensive mode with out enough personell on the scene. when i hear that a fd don't have enough personell on scene then i can also tell a lot about how much the people in the community care about each other. the other comment on using the vent team to rit. you need to back up and look at the time frame the studies from seattle took and then add the time it takes to vent a roof or if your dept uses positive pressure. you need to set up a drill or drills and use real time and realistic personell to find out how long it take to vent and how wore out you are when your done and you will see that its a bad deal for the two in if there is trouble. we to much think that the nozzle is where it is at and not getting bored at rit. we get bored at rit because we train good and follow that training when we fight and then we get to go home instead of a furneral. rit is in place when so that when something not seen or accounted for goes bad and we have firefighters in trouble we give them a fighting chance. if you have done another task you are not in top shape to do rit. i took a class on rit and we had 36 in the class and we had to respond to a mayday. we could use everyone at once or in teams of two with an assigned rit team. the maze was setup and masks were blacked out with waxpaper, no smoke or fire and it took 48 min to remove the victim. if you want more details on the scenerio i will provide but this opened my eyes alot to the time frame of a firefighter rescue. it also as an incident commander help me make the right choice in offense or defense based on the amount of firefighters i hwve and not on the property and or superman inside of me and we all go home.
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Permalink Reply by Dustin J. Millis on
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I've always been taught that 2 in 2 out means that you must have an equal number of FF's outside of the structure when fighting fire to the amount of FF's inside the structure. Here we call it a RIT team (rapid intervention team). The FF's on the RIT team do nothing but wait outside the structure, close to the entry point, fully geared up with masks on, just not breathing air. That way if for whatever reason, the 2 FF's inside come in danger; the two outside are ready to instantly go in and rescue them. The rule applies to however many FF's are inside the structure, for example 3 in 3 0ut , 4 in 4 out.
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Well Dustin, as someone stated earlier, that is a misnomer. The two-in/two-out rule was intended to make sure that there were at least two people outside, packed up and ready to make entry if an interior attack was to be initiated or if someone was going to be operating in an IDLH atmosphere. It sounds to me, as is common with a lot of people, that whoever is teaching you that has misinterpreted the standard.
Take the FDNY for example: they have multiple alarm fires everyday. By your logic (or instruction), if 100 people were operating inside a multistory building, 100 people would have to be outside standing by. Not only is this line of thinking impractical, it's a complete waste of resources. -
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Permalink Reply by Trainer on
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Maybe I can solve this. We were going over fire control in training last night and came across this from Illinois FF II instructors manual, it’s called “2 out”. Which many have pointed out you have 2 packed and ready to go, not necessarily RIT, but can be called that, their main duty is to cover the primary egress. I will venture a guess that some Joe FF added “2 in” just so he could remember it, and as is sometimes the case it stuck. Or 2 in 2 out means just that 2 go in 2 come out, wait, I’m not solving anything…back to two meanings….fine, remember what you want, both are a golden rule, I got an idea….”2 in 2 out 2 ready”
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Isn't this subject about beaten to death....? There really isn't any room for discussion.....Paul
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