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i have a question? i live in west texas, and we do lots of back burns to save houses or stop large running fires. So Why cant the firefighters in California light a back burn off the side of the road to stop or slow the head of the fire. Or go down the way when the fire was early and make a clearing and make a hold to save the 600+ or so houses? Just something that has been bugging me for a good while.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Tony P on
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Anyone from Cal able to answer? As an outsider, I'd say they probably use that method where they can. In the mounainous country they have, it's not always an option though. A backburn can be a good tool, but is always a dangerous tool.
By "make a clearing and make a hold" do you mean a clearing from which people on the ground can fight the fire as it approaches? Id so, that isn't possible with these fires, Mike S has explained in another thread how the flames are topping 50 feet in height. You can't fight that from the ground. Some of the country in which we have to fight fires is like that where the current Ca fires are. It's very hard. Because of the topography you can't tell which way a fire is going to go next.
I may be wrong in what I've just said, but I've tried! Your's is a good question, after all, the only stupid question is the one you don't ask.
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Permalink Reply by Oldman on
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You have a lot different terrain and conditions than what they do in California. While you have hills in your area, they are not the same as the mountains with the heavy brush and trees. Another thing in your favor, is the abundance of barriers, (ie: lease roads) which can assist you. I know that it gets windy there, but unless you have ever experienced Santa Anna winds, it is hard to imagine how fast the flame front will move, and how far it will spot ahead of you.
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Permalink Reply by anne potter on
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We also do alot of back burns ,but we don't have the terrian as CA has... Now that is one hell of a grass fire or woods fire that they have.... We have had some bad ones,but no where close to a CA fire... I give it to the fireman in Ca good work guys...
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Permalink Reply by Kirk D. Baughman on
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josh i was thinking about that this past summer when california had all them fire going. i live up in the texas panhandle. we have no trees like california has. a back burn in california looks like it would do more harm then good to me. clearing a path would take lots of man power cutting all them trees down. plus you have houses in and around the trees. you even have city blocks the way the news talk.
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Permalink Reply by Clint on
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I'm not with a CA department (as yet), but all points previously discussed are indeed very valid (i.e. winds and terrain), and what I hear in news reports is to the opposite. They do perform back burn when it is safe to do so.
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As I said above.
We too use backburns in thick forest - but it's a dangerous tool. A tool to be very careful with. Backburn away from houses? Yes you can, but if it goes wrong?
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Permalink Reply by Engineco913 on
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Can you explain how lighting a backfire in a 50-75 mph wind range will help? Constant winds, not breezes. The gusts are generally 20-25mph stronger then the sustained winds. How can it be called a backfire if the fire is traveling like a rocket WITH the wind? There would be no option of a backfire, more of a burnout of an area between the brush and a section of homes. With the firestorm of embers and spotfires starting miles ahead, this idea most likely was deemed unsafe by the people who deal with these type of fires YEARLY. Lets let them get a good bead on the fire before the realm of people crucify them for their actions.
When any of us become perfect, then we can be critical. Until then, lets support them instead of killing them without their chance of rebuttle.
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Please 913, slow down a little. Josh didn't understand something, so he asked the question. What's wrong with that? You're an instructor, remember what the only stupid question is? Josh explained how wildfires are fought in his area, he's wondering why these methods don't seem to be used in CA. He didn't crucify them, my view is that he didn't attack them at all. He just wants to know. The SoCal people are probably just a little too busy to get involved - Mike S. might add someothning when he has the time.
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The current fires in Southern California are not 'just' wildfire. They are to a large extent (because of the normal wind conditions) urban interface. Urban interface is hard. We fight large wildfires - in grassland and forests. We also have urban interface areas, but luckily nowhere near the amount that CA has. Different conditions, smaller population. We don't fight these fires the same way as things seem to be done in North America. Some techniques are the same, some are similar. Some are very different. I look at some of the techniques used and think 'no way would we ever do that, it's simply too dangerous.' Different conditions, different country, different methods.
In talking about urban interface, I'm talking about what we have in Victoria. New South Wales, South Australia and Tasmania have worse conditions than we have. Until Melbourne spreads out even more...
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Permalink Reply by Jay Nicholson on
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Backfires are used. But in my experience, rarely if ever during the initial stages of a fire. Backfiring requires a coordinated effort. During the early stages of these events, very little is organized and/or coordinated. I have heard today that there are backfiring operations in effect now.
Santa Ana wind events are something that you have to experience to really understand what is happening. In the early stages of the LA area fires, wind speeds were a sustained 70MPH. 75MPH is considered hurricane strength. These are not gusts, but sustained wind speeds. Humidity levels drop to the single digits with temps in the 90/100 degree range.(For my Aussie friends, those are F and not C). It almost seems as if the fuel is being superheated to it's flash point. because it will literally explode.
The Cedar fire at one point jumped I-15 near Miramar MCAS. At that spot, the freeway is 16 lanes wide. A nice fire break of cement that no bulldozer could have created in a timely manner. The only thing that kept that fire from burning to the ocean was a slight westerly breeze.
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But the ocean would have stopped the fire... Here in Victoria we have what we call the Greeat Southern Firebreak - the ocean.
Nicely written mate, and the sorts of things that we, at least, can understand. From a distance. To a lot of people, a fire jumping a 16 lane freeway would sound impossible. Give us the right conditions (or the wrong conditions if you like!) and we get spotting up to 35 kilometres, around 20 miles or more.
PS. I'm old enough to understand temps in F.
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My apology. I get frustrated when a massive call is occuring and the first thing people do is be critical of whats going on. The people on scene are doing all they can with respect to their actions. They are operating on a unified command (amazing concept that works when used lol) and in areas where they could do so safely, run some backfires. In all honesty (based on youtube video's and news footage) anyone operating closeby these fires in a 70mph sustained wind is already in a extremely hazardous area. I commend the firefighters for not getting hurt. A fire of this magnitude not hurting or killing a firefighter is a truely amazing accomplishment. This fire moves in feet per second. How many feet can any of us travel in a matter of 30 seconds?
We will get tired and slow down, the fire won't.
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