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Training Fires
I know this has probably been disscussed on here before, But I am wondering about this. Our Dept. has an abandon house that we are prepping for a training fire, we had one a year ago and it was good training. My question is that with training burns where they use pallets and more or less are having a contents fire, how many of you just don't get excited and pumped up for that kind of fire. I keep thinking that there is something wrong with my attitude with that, after having a few structure fires under my belt. Any words of wisdom or does anyone else have that feeling as well.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jason Brooks on
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Then if this is how you feel, take the opportunity to teach the less experienced members of your department. Most departments have seen a drop is structure fires and a rise in EMS calls. This is how they stay sharp and indoctrinate the younger members.
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Permalink Reply by PFC Harmon on
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If you can instead of burning it and using it for traing on 1 day board the windows get a 50 gal. drum fill it with straw and burn it to smoke the house up. Then you can use the house several times.
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Permalink Reply by John on
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Good point that makes alot of sense to me thank you for that, we do have a few new guys and gals abd that helped me think of this as a new way to look at the training, Thanks again J, Brooks
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Thanks for the Information Justin. I am gonna suggest that to our training officer and see if they will do that as well.
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Permalink Reply by T.J. on
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we always use our house for search and rescue first, then the next week do room fires, then the following week use it as a mutial aid fire with a near bye department and burn it down:)
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I am not sure what they are gonna do other than the final is burn it down, but I like that Idea too. Thanks T.J.
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Permalink Reply by Aaron Wepking on
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If nothing else, simply observing abuilding as it burns could be a great training tool, since not everyone has had the chance to see it happen. When I first joined I had the opportunity to see it and felt that it gave me a better understanding of how things are done and how fires progress.
Having only been to a small handful of fires (about 5), and none of them being contents fires, I can only compare to training tower burns, and it seems to be a completely different beast fighting a fire in a pile of trash in room versus a fire that is eating away at the very material that holds the structure and is quite likely being sheilded by walls and such. Structure fires definately push more adrenaline into me than the contents fires did.
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Thats definitely an aspect I hadn't thought of either to just watch it burn to see what happens. Thanks Aaron.
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Permalink Reply by Dan Thomas on
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You have to get some kind of "pumped" up for it. Even if you are nervous thinking that something will go wrong and, knowing Murphy's Law, it probably will. Always remember that, whether it's training or not, fire is always real. It don't care if you are training or not. For example here is something for you to look at.
http://www.firehouse.com/news/2000/4/10_ENQburn.html
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I'm definitely not worried about something going wrong although that is always a possibility, Our Dept is very safety oriented, I would like to get pumped up about it more and getting all of these comments is really helping out alot. Thanks Dan
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Permalink Reply by FETC on
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NFPA 1403 should be used, mandatory no discussions. Now unless you guys are responding to more fires than anyone else I know, what do you mean you need to get pumped up for a fire. The previous suggestions are great. I can get month's and month's of training out of a structure. Problem is usually timing, the owner wants it gone by a certain time. You can do ladder operations, ventilation training with saws verse handtools, search and rescue, TIC, RIT, personal survival skills all before you burn it.
As far as not being excited for a live burn in an acquired structure, maybe in the past the fires are so small nobody gets excited, (seen that) but the person in charge is trying to stay out of trouble and not get anyone hurt in the process.
I always end my training burns with a good lesson on fire behavior and thermal dynamics, if you have a large common room (family room) I have the guys open up a few windows into full size doors with a chain saw for extra egress points. We setup our NFPA 1403 fire load in one corner furthest from the egress points and I then assign spots for everyone to kneel and watch. Usually side by side along the outside wall that has the exit door openings. We will explain and show who is supposed to go out what exit door when I say time to leave. We bring in two lines, one from each side of the room. One being 1.75" and the other a 2.5" line. We light a fire in the far corner and watch it grow through the stages, and explain fire spread, thermal dynamics, especailly if it has a center staircase. How fire will naturally travel to and up the natural openings. How it will spread overhead. We will use the small line in a straight stream pattern to show the effects of pencil, pencil, fog to knock it back. Then let the fire build again, and use the 2.5" to see what big water can do. All the while, the firefighters who are inside watching, are passing the TIC or multiple TIC's around. The instructor can move to show how the fire can mask a victim by the heat/flames on the camera, (bleaching him from being behind the heat signature or along side the pile and then move to in-front of the fire to show inversion with the (instructor) being cooler than the fire and he will present as a darker imagine on the TIC. If you have technology to monitor temperatures, you can call out room temps and the firefighters have a first hand idea how hot it is with their gear on. This is real thermal insult recognition! When the instructor is getting a little too hot, (usually more than the students because he is moving closer to the fire if using the TIC for the inversion scenario) then it is time to call the all out, with a systematic approach using the pre-determined exits and then reporting to an accountability officer for your tag. While the exiting is occurring, the safety officer's can hold back the fire with the two lines. Last ones out are the instructor and the 2 safety officer's, I usually put one on each side of the room to make sure the students remain in between them.
Last training burn I ran was for a neighboring department, I had 19 students in the "watch area" because the room was big enough to and I had people afterwards saying that was the most intense thing they had ever been in, or I wish they would have explained fire behavior like this in FF1.
I have placed some pics on my FFN page...
Most important thing is to NOT get anyone hurt! Training is supposed to be educational not turn into a real emergency. Best of luck.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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I don't think we should get pumped up for fires. I've heard it said that "Garbagemen don't get excited when they see a pile of trash on the sidewalk, why should we get excited over a fire?" Or as Al Brunacini puts it "If it's an emergency to us, who would you call?"
Follow NFPA 1403 to the letter and beyond. If you're not familiar with the standard, get familiar with it and follow it. It's legally defensible, it will keep firefighters from getting hurt or killed during training, and it will keep the training officers out of jail. There are several cases of training officers getting fired, sued, and imprisoned for firefighter fatalities during training burns under their supervision. In every case, the prosecutor/plaintiff's attorney asked if the firefighters followed the 1403 standard. In every case, the answer was either "No" or "What's NFPA 1403"? Ignorance didn't help them in court.
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