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PPV and PPA
I did an internet class yesterday at the fire station on PPA (positve pressure attac). I have been around the fire service for many years and alot of this class goes agianst everything I have learned over the years. I would love to implement what I learned but I would like to know if anybody is activly using PPA and how is it working for you.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Kriss Garcia on
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You are so right,,,,,Education and knowledge are absolutes...Experience is not enough,,,,It is scary that some instructors are out there on the road regurgitating what they have heard and not fully understanding the concepts. I have been to the UK (Cornwall) several years ago presenting for the Fire Engineers,,,You have a great service with great people,,,,I know one thing that those in the UK do not employ tactics without competency or understanding,,your patience and looking for scientific data to drive decisions are something the US fire service could use.
Thank
KRiss
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You are right,,,the one thing to remember about PPA is that the interior CO levels are already over 1200 PPM so the CO we introduce, as long as we are in SCBA, is not that big of a deal....Any victims will only be in this environment for a short period of time,,,and the conditions where they are are absolutely more tenable than they were just moments before.
Thanks
Kriss
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Permalink Reply by David on
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Hi Mike and thanks for the response to my posting.
You are right and the introduction of CO from the exhaust of the fan engine could create a hazard. Unfortunately, having retired now, I am not in a position to conduct such tests. Maybe someone will though and I too would be interested in the results. I believe the CO levels dragged in with the air flow would be insignificant but without scientifice evidence, who knows?
Maybe manufacturers could help by conducting such tests.
Thanks again
Regards
David
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Hi Kriss. Thanks for the response. It is a very interesting topic and one I have personal views on because I was once, like many 'old die hards', extremely skeptical of the PPV and PPA concept. This all changed of course when training and methodology were explained, demonstrated and practiced.
I know it worked for me as incident commander of many domestic and industrial property fires.
Like I said in my original posting, I have no knowledge of PPA as we only used the fans for ventilation purposes. I do know however, that the brigade were considering intermediate and offensive use of them in the future and some brigades in the UK already use them successfully in this way.
I am a big believer in the PPV concept now and would urge anyone who has an interest to seek out more information on the subject. It is a great benefit to firefighters.
Regards
David
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Permalink Reply by John Kriska on
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I have viewed both the "photos" and "video" links provided by "Tom". Before I share my thoughts on both, let me share some information that I think is important in understanding this PPA tacitic that we have been discussing. Back in the l980's, Chief Alan Brunnacini introduced his "Fire Command" series. Within that teaching was a recommendation that we attack the fire from the un-burn side, push it back into the burn area and out of the building. Now comes along this idea of PPA, guess what, using PPA tactics does the same thing. Get the crap out of the building and if it flashes over outside, who cares. What we need to do is ventilate the fire area, give it closer area of lower pressure to go and then keep it going in that direction. That is what PPA will do.
I am going to address both the photos and video as no one trapped and only dealing with the fire itself.
Photos: The fire appears to me to have self vented itself. Why? Heat creates pressure, this is fire positive pressure, the greatest amount of pressure is in the fire area. The windows being the weakest part of the building failed and allowed the fire to follow to an area of lower pressure. So now we have one part of what is need to use PPA, an exhaust opening. I would go to the rear of the building and set up part number two, a pressurization opening. I would pressurize the building to keep the products going in the right direction. One thing I would do enroute to the rear is as I passed the fire, using a straight stream I would sweep the ceiling thus reducing the fire down to a more managable size. On the other hand, PPA may not be needed, this fire probably could be controlled very quickly by application of a straight stream from outside, then go inside. Something to think about.
Video: This fire too appears to be self vented. When the door was opened, the smoke did not come out under a great deal of pressure which tells me that at location, there was not high heat. I would have set up a blower at the door, presssurized the building and kept the fire going in the direction that is was already going, out of the building.
I look at both of these incidents and see text book use of PPA.
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Dave,
There is tons of data on PPA/PPV We have tried to put most of it on our website,positivepressureattack.com
Drop in and take a look
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The items you are discussing are the basics of PPA that if everyone followed they would be okay. To believers these things seem so obvious,,,,,to non believers they seem so foreign,,,,I am sending out the registrations for the PPA class today,,,keep an eye out for it it should have the hotel accommodations listed also
Thanks
Kriss
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Permalink Reply by Art "ChiefReason" Goodrich on
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Call the ones who aren't currently using PPA whatever you want.
I consider myself as "unconvinced" at the moment.
That's not to say that I'm not looking at empirical data, reading NIST and other documents of record.
And after more trials using it, it may or may not go into the offensive line-up.
But the comfort level is going to be there before that's done.
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Permalink Reply by Mike on
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Our department uses PPA. When implemented correctly/safely it is beneficial, i.e. the set-up of the fan is the right distance from the door, only one opening in the rear of the structure or where the fire is, and close coordination/communication with your interior crew has been established. If your department has sound policies and procedures about its use, it is a good tool.
It's all about training and discipline!
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I would be very careful in limiting the size of the exhaust as this in what is usually linked to flashover and increased heat flux in the survival area where victims are. You are not creating pressure,,the fire makes the most pressure, water again increases in hundreds of times,,,,What you are really doing is making enough negative area for the fire to quickly vent through. It is not a big deal to have some space a the entrance that the blower does not cover. In fact this is recommended to determine if you have enough downstream exhaust,,if fire or appreciable smoke vents over the top of the cone,,more exhaust area should be created,,,I know what the texts all say,,,I have as well as other done hundreds of evaluations regarding what I am saying and the texts that limit the size of the exhaust are just flat out WRONG!!!!!!
Take a look at some of our information on positivepressureattack.com in the resource section,,,you should find about a years worth of good reading there,,
Thanks
Kriss
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On Wednesday, Jan.9th at 1615 hours, our department was toned to a structural fire. This fire occurred in the worst part of our district in that it was as far north and east as you can get. Mutual aid was immediately dispatched. Four departments responded.
Fire was HELD to the room of origin.
PPA was used.
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Permalink Reply by Engineco913 on
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Like everything else a posative pressure fan is a great tool, when used in the correct way. You don't go to a fire thats in the walls, and just crank up the fan to find it. You would use the other means of ventilation (roof, windows etc) to evacuate the smoke so your crews can see. On CO calls, you should have the small exhaust hose attaches as to not allow the CO from the small engine of the fan to recirculate inside the house. I find it disturbing that some people are afraid of thse fans. Did they jump into the fire service as a seasoned firefighter, or did you have to sit back, train on the aspects, and learn through time and experience? The fan is a modern marvel for us, and with the proper ammount and quality of training will be efectual in helping us do our jobs many years into the future
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