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Auto extrication question
Last night my fire dept had a auto extrication training and one of the guys said to cut the a post than go to opposite side and cut the a post than go back across and cut the b post then go to opposite side and cut the b post than go back and cut the c post than go to opposite and cut the c post he said that was the way they taught him in class in bloomington?? wouldnt it be easier to cut the ABC post on one side then go to opposite side and do the same???
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Andy Entwistle on
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I learned (and we have always done) ABC, then ABC. If there's a real reason not to, I'll be interested to hear it.
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Permalink Reply by firefighter1and2 on
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me and that guy argued bout that and I told him he was a dumb ass especially when your in a hurry to get the patient out. how long does it take you to do an extrication??
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Permalink Reply by Mike Schlags (Captain Busy) Retd on
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Not to be Mr. Obvious here but as Ed said, why on earth would you want to waste so much time moving equipment back and forth? There is something called the golden hour which as more research is accomplished will become the golden 30 minutes. The sooner you get the victim(s) out of the car, the better chance they will survive the event.
With that said, do you only have (1) one rescue spreader / cutter unit? Do you only have (1) one engine responding to this MVA? I don't think so... Every fire truck around here has a set of Jaws and we respond a truck company to assist us which brings a lot more equipment and resources. Responding to this incident requires more manpower and equipment. One engine takes one side and the other takes the opposite. Finish the A Post, then move to the B Post in a coordinated effort.
Another option is to simply spot your apparatus closer to the accident scene and use the reel line off the engine to power the jaws, spreaders or cutters.
I am sure that whoever was providing their "opinion" on how to successfully extricate someone had their heart in the right place, it just doesn't make sense to do anything that will delay getting someone out of the vehicle that needs to receive immediate medical care.
For me, it seems that most of my MVA's that we respond too are rollovers and the vehicle seems to always end up on it's top. I mention this because it makes things like A posts moot. The only time we see a need to cut the vehicle's top off is when there is a car to car collision and you need better access for patient removal. Upside down cars create a whole hose of issues to contend with.
Knowing how to quickly punch in your spreaders, grab the door, peel it back and then get in and create an opening is the key point here coupled with stabilization of the vehicle. It's all about gaining quick access to the victims(s).
Mike from Santa Barbara...
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Permalink Reply by Brian Dumser on
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Here, we cut the A, B and C pillar on one side, then pass the tool over and that FF cuts the A, B and C pillars on his/her side. It's way faster than screwing around with going back and forth. Stay safe!
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have not heard of cracking the egg buddy... I've bent over and cracked a smile though... : )
as far as not having two sets of jaws... not good... seems to me that local community service organizations could be rallied to put monies together to enhance your program. where are you located again?
don't forget the homeland security grants, this could be an avenue for you to get stuff, just a thought.
also, have I told you how much I enjoy talking with you. how refreshing to meet someone so bright and motivated. I'm stoked to have you as my friend. Mike
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Permalink Reply by Oldman on
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In my short tenure in the fire service (he says with tongue in cheek), the one thing I have repeated over and over again is; there is never only one way of doing things. This is especially true when it concerns vehicle extrication.
I have seen instructors who advocate cutting the A post on each side, B post etc. citing that it is easier to control the roof to prevent it from twisting or shifting during the cutting. Perhaps, it's something they have seen happen, and not necessarily because they are a "non-speaking donkey". Do I teach that way? No, but it is not necessarily because I'm always right.
I still see people who want to spread the window on a door before trying to pop it at the Nader Pin, while I prefer to peel the fender and cut the hinges. Both methods will accomplish the same thing and in most cases take about the same amount of time. One is old school and the other is a more modern approach.
Every situation is different and may require a different approach. Some departments are fortunate to have multiple apparatus with tools, hose reels etc. Not everyone is able to operate like that. Or maybe when you need the extra apparatus, you have multiple call occurring at the same time (which NEVER happens). Sometimes you just don't have the resources available and have to do what you have to do. You adapt, and overcome.
In this post, it was a training evolution. Isn't thats what it's for? To learn and to practice different techniques and strategies? To see what works well and what doesn't?
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Permalink Reply by Rae Ann Ozelis on
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RIGHT ON!
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Permalink Reply by Engineco913 on
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Our apparatus have multiple sets of cutters and spreaders so we can work the 2 sides of the vehicle simultaneously (or multiple vehicles at once). With the "golden hour" being so important, patient removal is key and time isof the essence.
We are trained that we have crews gathering the tools while another starts cribbing and puts out the "accident ahead" signs. More training (and more equipment in some cases) will take the kinks out and make this flow like warm oil.
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Can't say that I've had to ever even consider doing that evolution but it sure would be cool to see some photos exemplifying the procedures.
Having just completed a few months back four days of statistical analysis training... that's a mouthful, I've learned how to play with response information based on using an Excel database. This is the type of information you need to both collect and manipulate. Do you use firehouse for your incident reports? If so, we may be able to work something out where I give you directions, you produce the raw excel data and I in return send you back what you need as far as statistics.
Another Idea How to Justify Getting Something: If I was living in Byng, Oklahoma, I'd be keeping really good stats on the types of calls I run, where they are, response times, the types of calls and so on... To have this information, and to be able to convert it to simple graphs and charts really gives what you want to accomplish a better chance. This also gives your Chief something to back him or her up when they go and fight for dollars.
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Permalink Reply by Firefighter Nation WebChief on
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Thread moved to new Rescue category in the forums!
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"The "assisting" guy on each side helps check for hazards in the pillars and headliners (airbags, seatbelt pretensioners, etc.)"
Good tactics, Ted. It's very important with today's airbag equipped vehicles to do a "peel & peek" looking for airbags, airbag cylinders & pretensioners. If only the auto industry would put their heads together and standardize the placement of these hazards! Stay safe!
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Permalink Reply by John Perry on
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As a extrication instructor, I teach cut the ABC post on the same side then move to other. This saves time! I know its not possible to have 2 sets of tools on each truck, but that would be the best. We carry one on each front line. On entrapment calls, we send 2 trucks. Keep safe and keep up on New techniques. Also Toyota puts out an cd on Hybids. If you can't find it, I 'll try to email you a copy. John
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