Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Joe Stoltz on August 24, 2008 at 3:19pm

Tom said most of what I was thinking. The exposure to the right appears to have light smoke issuing from it, and I would hope that by now there are crews inside pulling ceilings and checking for extension.

Those members are way too close to the front of the building, and standing up to boot. Smoke obscures what's directly overhead so who knows what's up there? The blowers are also too close to the building to cover the entire front.

I also see overhead wires of some type... fire could be impinging on them and the crew would be in deep trouble if they are live and burn through.

Get a couple of ladder pipes and/or portable deck guns going, buy some hot dogs and marshmallows, donuts, pizza, whatever.

Permalink Reply by Don Zimmerman on August 26, 2008 at 12:19am

Fire through the roof, collapse hazard X 9, big fire little water??, IC?? Safety Officer??, you have lost that business, and the one next door already has had steam and smoke penetration, so it is going to go in a moment.

Strip malls & downtown single businesses: You always or nearly lose 3 at one time the middle one where it started and the 2 on the sides. You better have strip cuts done about now at the next fire walls or you will lose more.

Way short on water BIG FIRE BIGGER WATER, if applied correctly fire behavior will change in your favor.

Poor use of manpower 3 on nozzles and the rest with finger in nose.

RIT team, who me, I want to see the smoke and fire up close, me go int here and get that guy out that has no nozzle in the building???

Tom is right on target this is lost cause!!!!!

Permalink Reply by Christopher J. Naum, SFPE on August 26, 2008 at 10:08pm

Great comments and very good insights..."What do you guys think in terms of reading the smoke conditions and the issues with collapse potential on side A and the proximetry of personnel....?" Also what about the fan versus the smoke behavior? Comments...?

Permalink Reply by tlp507 on August 29, 2008 at 7:55am

I agree so far with everything that has been said.
Definately the exposure on the D side needs to be addresses. I's hard to determine if it is being done. There seem to be hoses in front of it, but are they going to or away? We can only hope they are leading to the exposure, but then again these kids don't seem to be "on it".

Chris asks about the smoke conditions.
-The first thing I see is brown smoke. That's bad and indicates to me that the incident has turned from a fire in the structure to a structure fire. The brown smoke tells me that the wood in the structure has had time to burn long enough to start to "carmalize", thus the brown color.
-Second, the smoke is turbulant. Angry smoke is bad smoke. I would assume that means it is heat pushed. It comes down to the old addage "where there's smoke, there's fire"; it's making it's way. Just wait, it will get darker and the fire will soon follow that.
-Third, the position of the smoke. It is coming out at the top of the door. This to me indicates that the fire is located high, in the ceiling/attic/crawlspace/drop ceiling. As with any fire, it's hard to tell what's inside due to the limited visibility. The improper position of the fan can also be a factor in the smoke exiting the way that it is, but it's doubtful only because if the windows are absent, the smoke is the same all the way across the building front.
-Fourth, the black smoke and visible fire on the roof indicates that it has been vented. This means the roof has been compromised. It is highly likely that this is a flat roof probably with heavy HVAC equipment. I am familiar with these types of structures because we have many in my city. It also is usually of a truss construction. Uh oh, what do they say "when one goes, they all go". I have seen that that is not always the case. However, it is pretty structually unsound, therefore it's unsafe.
I bet that these fellas standing here with, how was it put "with their fingers up their nose", have one of those crystal balls that they refer to on the rig. Personally, my crew and I commonly refer to the Magic 8 Ball. (If you don't have one, I highly advise getting one.) But the crystal ball... whoa!, that's the way yo go. I mean, to be able to know if a severly compromised building is going to come down on you or away from you... that's amazing! I want one of those things!

It's easy to sit back and be an armchair quarterback. I am sure that I can examine pictures of fire scenes that I have been on and say "what the hell were we thinking?!?"
But recognition and learning from our mistakes are what make us better at what we do.

Everyone stay safe!
-Tracey P. - Fort Wayne, IN

Permalink Reply by Christopher J. Naum, SFPE on August 29, 2008 at 9:50am

You're right on...great post and insights.
Stay Safe...and remember; "Building Knowledge = Firefigter Safety"

Permalink Reply by llpoteat on September 2, 2008 at 2:30am

It's hard to say. Would really like to see some more pictures of the structure. I agree that this structure is gone and it looks as if the Delta side is goin as well. Depending on the wind and the other exposures pull those guys back and flood it. If there are other exposures in that strip mall consider a trench cut. Turn off the fans and save the gas it's to expensive to waste. Great call on the overhead wires. Its hard as a firefighter to step back and look around you to see what else MR. Murphy has up his sleeve. With all those guys standing around (couple appear to be sitting) drop the small diameter hose and go get the 2.5", or not just my stlye.
Where's Dave Dodsen when you need him???