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Hi Vis Vests and the Impending NEW LAWS
Hi Guys, I just thought I would throw this in the ring for discussion and IF anyone has any questions or comments please feel free to add or contact.
The new law for wearing safety vest was passed some time ago. On November 24th, 2008 the grace period comes to an end.
ANY and ALL workers who will be working on or near a federally funding highway MUST wear an ANSI safety vest class 2 or better. At last, someone is beginning to consider knock downs as a problem. There are NO exceptions! Police, fire EMS, tow truck drivers and even the guy cutting the grass.
However, if you are a fire fighters that MAY cause you a problem. The new law does NOT state that the vest has to be a breakaway design nor does it state it has to be flame retardant or flame resistant! But whatever vest you have you will have to wear it!
This LAW is basically being extended to ALL public roads across the U.S. in early 2009 via the publication of the new MUTCD. That means anywhere the public can drive a car is included.
At the Baltimore Expo the buzz phrase "if your feet are on the street, your vest is on your chest" is being sung.
My concern is that IF you have a current/old vest it is more than likely to be flammable, and highly flammable at that. So PLEASE check out your vest ASAP. and IF it is flammable, either get news ones or if you are in a road situation and fire is in effect, ensure your own safety by using the fire truck as protection from passing traffic, close the damn road down if necessary and at that point knowing you are moving into a burning scene, do not wear your FLAMMABLE safety vest. You have a damn good reason not to and NO sensible person is going to fault you if you protect the scene, consider yourself and then deal with the scene itself. After all what is the point of you getting burnt and injured as well as the people in the accident as well?
The suggestion moving forward is that your vest should be an ANSI 107-2004 vest which is 5 point breakaway and at least flame retardant or hopefully flame resistant. Do not sell yourself short on this.
The police complained loudly about the fact that an ANSI 107 vest MAY cover their gun belts and therefore endanger them if they need to draw their guns quickly. They were lucky and 3 weeks after the new law was effected ANSI came out with the ANSI 207-2006 standard. This has exactly the same amount of reflective; however instead of 775 square inches of background fabric, it uses only 450 square inches of background fabric.
So it generally rides up higher on the body to give them access to their guns.
At the Firehouse Expo, we still had a few people think that the new laws do not include them! Wow are they in for a nice surprise and several fire fighters looking for ANSI 207-2006 vests instead of ANSI 107-2004 vests.
Let me state clear and LOUD, ASNI 107-2004 vests are FINE. In fact they are better for most firefighters as they have increased visibility as they are larger than the ANSI 207 vests.
BOTH standards do NOT include five point breakaway OR flame retardant or flame resistant features. These features can be ADDED to BOTH vest designs.
Most police in reality are not that concerned with getting to their guns and wearing a much smaller vest than doing traffic control on a winter’s niters night in the rain when the power is out. Then of course the more reflective and background fabric they wear the better for them.
So just to let you know you can get an ANSI 107-2004 vest that is flame retardant and five point breakaway and actually folds up to form an ANSI 207 vest all in one garment. One size fits most.
Now in November of 2009 new fire appliances will need one vest per riding position that is ANSI 107-2004 and flame retardant and five point breakaway. So there is hope going forward.
If your dept, cannot afford new vests use caution. You can get funding for vests from a wide variety of sources now.
Slowly manufacturers are responding to the new laws and demands and bringing out product to comply. So shop around get a flame retardant vest at least, with five point breakaway, and washable too. You can cut a deal for around $30 a vest for flame retardant or $50 a vest for flame resistant. DON'T get ripped off, higher price does not mean better quality or more features!
One final point, ensure each vest has a serial number. Why? Let’s say you decide to have one vest per rider instead of personal kit issue of one per staff member.
Let’s say Monday night that vest attends a nasty chemical incident, colorless, odorless, but highly irritating chemicals get on the vest, it's dark, cold and you are there for hours. Finally you get to go home, safe, warm and tired you leave the vest on the truck not even thinking you got it covered in this chemical.
You go home, sleep and a few days later another call comes in during the afternoon. Your day off, your buddy rides in your place, it's only for a small grass fire. It's hot; he's wearing a t-shirt and his turnout pants and boots. He sweats he rubs against the seat as the truck travels to the scene, the vest rubs against his arms, his skin starts to itch, the sweat mingles with the molecules of this nasty toxin. After all it wasn't washed.
Now it silently seeps through his skin and into his blood stream, the toxins react under hot conditions. Just like snake venom, the more you move the faster it works. Slowly he becomes tired, restless, and finally collapses from the effects of the chemical.
Everyone thinks it is because of the heat, no-one understands it was because his vest was contaminated. He gets worse, he is rushed to the hospital, a victim of cross contamination, yet no-one has any idea what it is, and so the medics cannot help him fast enough and he slowly slips away.
So is one vest per rider or is one vest per person a better. SAFER policy?
You see, most people look at a vest and don't think there is much behind it. Almost like a t-shirt really. Well some people out here understand much more of the science of trying to keep people safe that you can see from just the outside of a vest.
I look forward to your ideas and thoughts.
BTW these are just a few of the issues regarding vests, there are plenty more to consider down the road.
The new law for wearing safety vest was passed some time ago. On November 24th, 2008 the grace period comes to an end.
ANY and ALL workers who will be working on or near a federally funding highway MUST wear an ANSI safety vest class 2 or better. At last, someone is beginning to consider knock downs as a problem. There are NO exceptions! Police, fire EMS, tow truck drivers and even the guy cutting the grass.
However, if you are a fire fighters that MAY cause you a problem. The new law does NOT state that the vest has to be a breakaway design nor does it state it has to be flame retardant or flame resistant! But whatever vest you have you will have to wear it!
This LAW is basically being extended to ALL public roads across the U.S. in early 2009 via the publication of the new MUTCD. That means anywhere the public can drive a car is included.
At the Baltimore Expo the buzz phrase "if your feet are on the street, your vest is on your chest" is being sung.
My concern is that IF you have a current/old vest it is more than likely to be flammable, and highly flammable at that. So PLEASE check out your vest ASAP. and IF it is flammable, either get news ones or if you are in a road situation and fire is in effect, ensure your own safety by using the fire truck as protection from passing traffic, close the damn road down if necessary and at that point knowing you are moving into a burning scene, do not wear your FLAMMABLE safety vest. You have a damn good reason not to and NO sensible person is going to fault you if you protect the scene, consider yourself and then deal with the scene itself. After all what is the point of you getting burnt and injured as well as the people in the accident as well?
The suggestion moving forward is that your vest should be an ANSI 107-2004 vest which is 5 point breakaway and at least flame retardant or hopefully flame resistant. Do not sell yourself short on this.
The police complained loudly about the fact that an ANSI 107 vest MAY cover their gun belts and therefore endanger them if they need to draw their guns quickly. They were lucky and 3 weeks after the new law was effected ANSI came out with the ANSI 207-2006 standard. This has exactly the same amount of reflective; however instead of 775 square inches of background fabric, it uses only 450 square inches of background fabric.
So it generally rides up higher on the body to give them access to their guns.
At the Firehouse Expo, we still had a few people think that the new laws do not include them! Wow are they in for a nice surprise and several fire fighters looking for ANSI 207-2006 vests instead of ANSI 107-2004 vests.
Let me state clear and LOUD, ASNI 107-2004 vests are FINE. In fact they are better for most firefighters as they have increased visibility as they are larger than the ANSI 207 vests.
BOTH standards do NOT include five point breakaway OR flame retardant or flame resistant features. These features can be ADDED to BOTH vest designs.
Most police in reality are not that concerned with getting to their guns and wearing a much smaller vest than doing traffic control on a winter’s niters night in the rain when the power is out. Then of course the more reflective and background fabric they wear the better for them.
So just to let you know you can get an ANSI 107-2004 vest that is flame retardant and five point breakaway and actually folds up to form an ANSI 207 vest all in one garment. One size fits most.
Now in November of 2009 new fire appliances will need one vest per riding position that is ANSI 107-2004 and flame retardant and five point breakaway. So there is hope going forward.
If your dept, cannot afford new vests use caution. You can get funding for vests from a wide variety of sources now.
Slowly manufacturers are responding to the new laws and demands and bringing out product to comply. So shop around get a flame retardant vest at least, with five point breakaway, and washable too. You can cut a deal for around $30 a vest for flame retardant or $50 a vest for flame resistant. DON'T get ripped off, higher price does not mean better quality or more features!
One final point, ensure each vest has a serial number. Why? Let’s say you decide to have one vest per rider instead of personal kit issue of one per staff member.
Let’s say Monday night that vest attends a nasty chemical incident, colorless, odorless, but highly irritating chemicals get on the vest, it's dark, cold and you are there for hours. Finally you get to go home, safe, warm and tired you leave the vest on the truck not even thinking you got it covered in this chemical.
You go home, sleep and a few days later another call comes in during the afternoon. Your day off, your buddy rides in your place, it's only for a small grass fire. It's hot; he's wearing a t-shirt and his turnout pants and boots. He sweats he rubs against the seat as the truck travels to the scene, the vest rubs against his arms, his skin starts to itch, the sweat mingles with the molecules of this nasty toxin. After all it wasn't washed.
Now it silently seeps through his skin and into his blood stream, the toxins react under hot conditions. Just like snake venom, the more you move the faster it works. Slowly he becomes tired, restless, and finally collapses from the effects of the chemical.
Everyone thinks it is because of the heat, no-one understands it was because his vest was contaminated. He gets worse, he is rushed to the hospital, a victim of cross contamination, yet no-one has any idea what it is, and so the medics cannot help him fast enough and he slowly slips away.
So is one vest per rider or is one vest per person a better. SAFER policy?
You see, most people look at a vest and don't think there is much behind it. Almost like a t-shirt really. Well some people out here understand much more of the science of trying to keep people safe that you can see from just the outside of a vest.
I look forward to your ideas and thoughts.
BTW these are just a few of the issues regarding vests, there are plenty more to consider down the road.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Medicine Man on
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I am not sure which one of these to respond to since it was posted 5 times, lol. We have them and carry one per man. My feeling is I will just stay off federally funded highways to avoid worrying about wearing them. If the feds wanna come get me for not having it on I say go ahead. Then I would get 3 square meals a day and a place to sleep. Then I can call the squad to get me when I am sick!! HAHA!
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Permalink Reply by Edward on
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The multiple entries are to ensure coverage and to show my inexperience on the web. However, I like the concept of staying off of Federally funded highways, but what happens in January whenh this is expanded to ALL roads?
Will you stay of of them too? And as for the "Feds" coming after you, well OSHA is ALREADY making out citations. The fine that they may apply can range upto but not limited to $7,000 per head. And don't you think it is safer and cheaper for the tax payer just to but you a vest than feed you and keep you, I presume a fully trained firefighter with the skills and experience in a jial?
Besides IF you got injured or LODD the insurance companies of course will have been given a great out for not paying your wife, family and kids as you were not wearing your vest.
Is all that legal hell yes, is it morally correct? probably not.
So please go ahead and laugh at safety measures that are meant to help you alive, I just hope your attitude to the safety of others is better, as you appear to be one of the gung-ho macho men who don't need safety, they just want the death or glory syndrome.
One would have hoped for a more sensible response than yours, but it's a free country and you are open to express your feelings as you see fit. I wish you a long and lucky life, and stay clear of traffic. I won't bore you with stats, but last year was the worst on record for first responders LODD due to traffic. I hope you won't become another number, so that your buddies and Chief have to visit your kin folk and explain why you didn't wear a vest.
As for me, I will keep my lowly butt inside a vest at any and every opportunity I can. Becoming a hood ornament is not in my plans for my future.
BUT if you wish to consider contributing to vest safety, how about where a vest at every opportunity, unless there is fire around, then dump your vest and you will be fine.
I have video of a police officer being clipped at in excess of 65mph and his vest broke away as designed and he walked away. I feel to change his pants, but he walked.
A good vest can be seen at over 2,000 feet away at night. So no matter how big you are traffic has time to slow down, stop or move over, but if you ain't wearing that vest...... you become the accidental target and maybe that result in death or maybe a serious injury.
I feel that people who have not had that close call can be flippant and make jokes, unless or until it happens to them or a close friend.
Live long, prosper and wear the damn vest! Please.
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You do relize I was just kidding. I do think this brings up the question of why we are not closing more roads when ops are going on but that is another story. I am all for safety so please calm down before you blow a gasket, and lets watch the name calling and assumptions before you say something that would be considered inflammatory. I could really go into a whole lot more but I am not sure a conversation with you would be much of an open dialog.
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You are quite right Sir,
I guess I have been battered by how many people still are "refusing" to wear a vest. it drives me nuts. And for silly reasons too. you know when it is right and safe to wear it and when it is not, but only a couple of weeks ago I had a fire inspector tell me the law did not apply to him as he was not working an appliance.
I prom[tly asked where in the law it stated he was exempt and he couldnt answer, he then said if it applied to him then his county would have told him, but they hadn't.
I then took time to sit down with him and go through a copy of the law with him, and asked him was he ever on a street, he siad yes, every day, he drove 1,200 per week and was on foot at scenes every day. Then the penny dropped and he asked me of all people why his county had not told him!
I had not idea. so I apologise but Novemebr is near and there are still far too many brothers and sisters out there even today who do not know or understand. And if you and me can get the message through to them in what ever way we can we might, just might save their life. And to me that is extremely valuable.
Forget the cost of training years in the job etc, it is the human cost, for the price of a dumb vest. A good vest can and does make that difference so please excuse me again if I am passionate about saving our first responders. and thanks for your kind words.
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I love that you are passionate about it! It's what we need at every level. If we could get passionate about every aspect of the job that would be awesome. Every life we save is another brother or sister that goes home when the shift is over. Keep up the fight and keep em safe!!
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Thank you kind Sir for your nice words. Greatly appreciated. I shall carry the fight forward with as much passion as my weary bones can muster and I would like to extend the hand of friendship to you, your family, friends and colleaugues. May you endeavours all be fruitful and enjoyable along lifes path. God Speed and may you keep going home safe and sound when the shift is over for as long as you wish to serve. Thank you.
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Permalink Reply by Greg cousler on
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I have a gut feeling that there are motorists passing by emergency scenes that don't slow down or slow down very little. At what speed does it take to seriously hurt someone anyway? In my area I have seen reluctance on some police officers to close roads especially the interstates. Increased visibility can only help. However if we could get quality traffic control much earlier, for example late at night on a main road or freeway, it is just my gut feeling that we could reduces injuries significantly. Is there anyone out there that has addressed added safety from this angle?
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Permalink Reply by Brian Dumser on
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Edward-
Common sense would dictate NOT wearing a vest to a vehicle fire as they may not be flame resistant! Our SOP states that vests will not be worn by personnel directly engaged in firefighting while on a roadway scene. Those NOT directly engaged in firefighting efforts WILL have their vests on.
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Permalink Reply by Matthew Ratliff on
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It is a great idea. I work on a federal installation and we just got them a month ago and I love them. Unfortunately, unlike most civilian departments, we have a great relationship with our PD and they close roads all the time for us. But we still have a saying "If your feet are on the street, that vest is on your chest!" Great topic. Now i gotta work on my volunteer department, lol
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Permalink Reply by Jason Brooks on
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Don't forget the Lawyers. If you get hit and are not wearing your vest, somehow it will end up your fault for not following the standard. If you think this won't happen, then you can be the test dummy.
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Permalink Reply by rfdjumper on
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If the boss says put on the vest, then I put on a vest. Nuff said.
So when are gear manufactures gonna jump on the bandwagon and make turnout gear in flourescent green with red chevroning on the back to match the apparatus? That's a joke
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When your feet are on the street, your vest is on your chest is a great way forward with the addage added "if you can see flame, there will be no blame, if I remove it". Most depts now are running that policy. More and more depts are becoming aware that 99% of vests in service today burn and burn badly! They cathc quickly and melt, they propagate flame easily and the molten drops of polyester transfers the flames elsewhere. Flame retardant fabrics, self-entinguish when the flame is removed. But where the flame was will melt locally but these fabrics will not propagate flames. Flame resistant fabrics just char, shrink and go black.
Ordinary vests may comply with ANSI 107 or 207 but are still normally higlhy flammable. flame retardant vests normally comly with NFPA 701 small flame test. Flame resistant vests are normally a mod-acrylic fabric and normally comply with ASTM 1506.
Difference in prices would be an NFPA fr vest would be around $30 each with lots of features and the same design in ASTM fabric would be around the $50 mark.
So to recap, any flames around remove your vest for your own fire safety, NO dept or lawyer will get on your case in this event, as all you have to do is to burn a small swatch of your issue vest which the manufacturer should be able to supply to you free of charge. Your dept would not prefer to have you on sick wimolten plastic having to be surgically removed from being embedded in your skin! Imagine the law suit you could give them in return for supplying you with a flammable vest?
Besides, how about this for a right royal mess.
NFPA have or are about to publish a new standard for NEW fire trucks! It is a huge document, every details, even safety vests!
However, it appears they may not have done their homework well enough.
They recomend a vest for each riding position. Thats great. Good move, they also recomend a 5 part breakaway safety vest, thats great too. A real move forward. But sadly thats where it stops. Now lets take some steps backwards! It makes NO mention that these vests must be maintained, for example washed or "cleaned" after a toxic or chemical incident. So when one crew leaves and they are dog tired as happens, one day, someone will forget to remove and decontaminate that one vest and the next crew may get a nastypossible life threatening skin contamination from it. We may laugh or think this is far fetched and please G** it is, but one day? someone, somewhere is going to get a nasty little rash.
The next step backwards is that they recomend an ANSI class 2 207-2006 vest!
An ANSI 107 vest must have 201 square inches of reflective, and 775 square inches of background fabric. NO LESS!
Shortly after 23 CFR 634 was published in November, three weeks, later, ANSI which is a standards group made up of some manufacturers who pay annual fees, finally came out wioth a new standard as some of their customeras who were police depts, had complained that ans ANSI 107 vest may cover an officers gun belt, and therefore endanger the officer in a self defence situation. Well that was the excuse.
In reality an ANSI 207 vest has EXACTLY the same amount of refleicts an ANSI 107 vest but much less background fabric. 450 square inches so approaching half the fabric of an ANSI 107. yes they are shorter, but 207 still did not make it a requirement to have these vests 5 point breakaway which would have been a much bigger help to the cops in a rumble with a bad guy.
So now you are aware that 207 came about after complaints after the new crf was passed, you can see someone at NFPA making a genric call to ANSI/ISEA asking the telephonist, "which is the latest standard for a safety vest in the U.S.
And the correct answer is 207. NOT which is the best most reflective, mmost visible vest for a firefighter? SO a huge goof-up there. Does it stop there? Hell no!
This is a classic! You'd think NFPA would recomend a flame retardent or flame resistant vest? NOPE! NEW fire truck makers do not have to supply one of these, they can supply a highly flammable version and still be compliant! This makes me mad, because NFPA publishes a standard themselves which a lot of vest manufacturers comply with. NFPA 701! They don't even recomend their own standard!
So this is why many fire depts are asking for an ASNI 207 vest instead of a 107 vest. What would you prefer to wear out there in the rain on a friday night in the dark, 775 square inches or 450 square inches?
There needs to be a ground swell to extend this new NFPA standard to include ANSI 107 as well as or instead of 207 and the MUST be Flame retardant or flame resistant!
If you agree please call them or send them an email, to their customer service dept! otherwise as fire trucks get retired these bad vests will creep in through the back door, your dept will not buy vests to replace them, why should they, you can see the cry now, "you already have vests on the new truck!".
What do you think and how do you feel? Surely lets get the guys the best vests and stop these people making standards for everyone when they themselves are not affected! OR at least get them to make educated decisions that get the right results for the firefighter in the front line!
As for the question about turnout jackets being fluorescent? simple, not for many years to come. The ANSI tests are based upon strict European testing levels for color, dye strength, burst strength, warp and weft and rub tests etc.
Turnout kit is not! Simply because the prime function of turnout kit is against flame and when you have these high flame levels ANSI hi-vis fabric do not get anywehre near those levels and therefore cannot be used for turnout kit for the foreseeable future, but the woul be a great idea, but new families of fabrics will need to be developed, produced and tested.
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