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Know-it-all Rookies, What's up with that?
Let me here from you all out there regarding your feelings and/or experiences with new hires who come into the station thinking they have the answers to all of lifes' mysteries. You know the type, lots of "book learnin'" but not street or people smart. Arrogant and mouthy. How do you guys handle it without getting fired? Lol. Any and all suggestions are accepted.
I am not sure if this has been a previous topic or not but figured it would get some good comments going.
I am not sure if this has been a previous topic or not but figured it would get some good comments going.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Greg Pierce on
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Yup, Todd's got it. From a veteran's point of view, sometimes they need a minor "dress-down" to let them know where they really stand. I also love throwing a scenario at them when they start getting that know-it-all attitude and try to show off in front of everyone. They will get sucked into it to show how "smart" they think they are. Let them give their huge dissertation on how they would handle it. Even if they get 95% of it right, hit them with the 5% they overlooked and then tell them "Congratulations - I am now at your family's house informing them that you just died" because you over looked this. I also use lines like: "Given your minimal experience, you should be asking questions, not giving advice". After the group gets a chuckle at their expense, most of them calm down. Then there the others that just dont get it no matter what you do.
GOOD LUCK!!
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Permalink Reply by J Mac on
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We all started our careers, volunteer or paid, not knowing a whole lot about the calling we just chose to answer. I remember being called a “wonder kid” by some of the old timers and being told “We got it done before you got here and we’ll get it done after you’re gone.” And that was more than 25 years ago. That is a very accurate statement that could go for just about any department. As time progressed you realize just how much you don’t know and still need to learn.
This is a very dynamic business that we are in with equipment, tactics, and just about everything else changing on a daily basis. The new guys can’t get it done without the help of the senior members and vice versa. As a guy that has been down a couple of hallways it is my responsibility to not only train to keep myself safe, but to make sure that the people around me develop into contributing members of the team themselves.
New guys remember that the more that you know, the more that you will be worth to the department. Trust is everything in this business. When it is time to dance make sure that you won’t let the people around you down. That mistake can take a lifetime to get over. Hope it isn’t mine!
Senior guys… cut them some slack. It wasn’t that long ago that each of us walked through the door for the first time. Help them out. You might be the one they are coming for.
If you do know everything….. No matter how long you’re on the job…. Please stay off my fireground!
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Permalink Reply by anne potter on
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young and dumb an d full of ------ is what most are when they start new... Be patient and make sure that you have their back on scene these are the ones who need it.. so smart they get hurt because they don't know it all...
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Permalink Reply by Billy Hepditch on
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As a former Training officer and Chief of a small department made up of unpaid volunteers I always found that it was usfull to at listen to these new young recruits . Some times we have done things a certain way , however if you dont listen to them then maybe you dont learn . my experience has been that these young guns are there for no other reason other than to serve the ppl of there community . Through the years I have encouraged my roookies to ask questions as to why things are done a certain way, and how maybe they could be improved. I have served with some fine young men and women rookies and would gladly put my life in their hands. I also made it a point to send these rookies to all courses and seminers that were available to them and to bring what they have learned back to the department. We all must remember these rookies are they future of our departments and shouldnt be ridiculed for sometimes thinking outside of the box.
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Permalink Reply by firegirl1 on
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I understand where i come from and where my brothers and sisters come from so that is not the issue. The majority of these guys and gals think that they have learned everything they need to know and are pretty much are resistant to any advice or additional information. If you do try to give them advice or teach them a lesson they take it personal and become overbearing and defensive. I can tell you I did not come into the job with this kind of attitude so i have no sympathy and having sympathy or "Cutting them some slack" and being apethetic is pretty much why they are allowed by "Senior" personnel to act like jackasses. So, J Mac when a rookie mouths off to you in on a call please practice what you preach and look back and get lost in your memories and "Cut them some slack".
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Hold up there firegirl…
I didn’t mean that being a rookie was a green light to freelance and mouth off. This is a semi-military business that we are in and under fire conditions they are expected to fall into line. If they don’t they will be dealt with harshly, more so from the senior guys then from their officers.
My point was that we all started out somewhere. The people that came before us invested their time and effort into us to make us better firefighters. It is our obligation to repay them by training the people who have come after us. They are our future as one poster mentioned.
On the fireground I could just whisper a suggestion into the ear of a superior and most of the time they took the suggestion in the spirit it was intended. As far as junior members I was the one that conducted 90% of the trainings. If I told them to do something they responded immediately.
My suggestion to cut them a little slack was during down time, never on the fireground. That is the place where things need to get done without question or hesitation there will be plenty of time to critique the operation later at the kitchen table.
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J Mac exactly. Obviously the face of the fire service is changing dramatically. I am and so are my brothers are confused as to why so many of the rookies or new hires are so resistant to authority until they are getting scolded. I am not alone in in this issue as you can see it seems to be universal.
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Here is one further thought on why things have changed over the years.
Years ago there was a strong military influence in the fire service. Members back in the 70’s and early 80’ had some military experience, most being Vietnam or Korean vets. They drilled into us what needed to be done. Somewhere along the line that got lost. In the generation of video games and what can you do for me things are different.
I taught a vehicle extrication class in one of the more affluent communities in the area. It was a group of mostly college grads who were very smart. Most of them have never even cut their own front lawn though. To say there was a learning curve on the motor skills end of the training is an understatement.
Now if only wii will come out with a game that teaches common sense…..
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Permalink Reply by Spanner 122 on
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So it's not okay to have attitude as a rookie (and no, it is not), but it is okay to shit on the rookies when you are on the job a while?? One of the guys i worked with while on rotations with my paid department was really funny, liked to pull some pranks, but would never belittle or demean, no matter what. He was helpful, but if someone stepped out of line, he would say so, but just say so. His father who is a capt on another paid department in my province told him, "You never step on someone on the way up, because if you do, they are the people you will need on the way down."
I say let nature run it's course. Tell the young bucks when they are out of line, toss a bucket of water here and there, but let the officers take care of any real situations. Try to teach, they don't accept it, you haven't wasted your time, you've done what you should do as a good firefighter, right? Keep teaching, they aren't all the same. And if they are, maybe your department should look at it's hiring practices.
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Hey Spanner,
If you think I am condoning shitting on rookies, please go back and read my other post in this thread. You will see that I mention cutting them some slack and spending time training them. I know that they are all not the same so I refrain from painting them all with a wide brush.
Part of being an instructor is to evaluate and critique your student. If they screw up you have to let them know about it so it doesn’t happen again. Not publicly humiliate them, just pull them aside and set them straight.
I have a very successful method and it doesn’t require a bucket of water or other props.
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Sorry, I wasn't responding to you, so no, I don't think that's what you're doing. And I wasn't actually saying that anyone was shitting on them, per say.
I am part of a mentor program for local college students. If they don't want to hear it, they hear it anyway. I do my part, they can decide whether or not to accept it. They can either have it easy, or make it tough on themselves. They aren't going to be happy if they cop an attitude, but they aren't going to be bullied or disrespected... but I do know that sometimes a point needs to be made.
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Permalink Reply by Lawrence W on
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Unfortunately, some of the changes that have come about in the last 10 years have weeded out some of the attributes of the fire service that drew me to it to begin with. Particularly the respect that I had for senior, more experienced officers when I first walked through the door...
For the last 3 years I have volunteered in a rural department that runs 350-375 calls for service per year. This is not by any means a high volume of calls. Prior to that, nine years were spent in stations that ran 10x that. Yet because that experience was not right in front of some of the people I volunteer with now, I get ridiculed for lack of experience, even after 12 years of service. Why? Because an attitude has developed among folks from a younger generation that they take a class or two and they know everything. People raise their children differently now than they ever have before. While it sounds good in all of your psychology classes and such, telling a child blankly "You can do anything you want to" doesn't always work. That statement should be revised by saying "with the proper training and experience. Ask questions and get the information that you need. You can seek the education and put it to work in your career".
While I have no military experience to speak of, the fire service (paid or unpaid) is a quasi-military organization. There is a chain of command and procedures to follow. I don't advocate public humiliation, but taking someone aside and telling them that their actions at this time or that time have the potential to get them, me or someone else killed is not at all inappropriate in my opinion.
We as human beings (I am speaking here for myself and many others that I know) learn best by trial and error. We make mistakes and we live to try it again a different way next time. As I read in elsewhere in another blog, we just need to try to "avoid making the big mistakes". That is what our education is for. Avoiding big mistakes. We all make small mistakes, whether we have 20 years service or 20 days service. They happen. We avoid them the best we can, but they happen.
My point here is that when you have a "rookie", "newbie", "probie", whatever, that gets smart with you and tries to run the show, have patience and proceed with caution. Understand that they just came out of class and want to try to use all of that knowledge as soon as they can. By making themselves look like they know what they are talking about (and book knowledge is not a bad thing) they want to move themselves into a position to be able to use that knowledge. They may or may not be ready for it, but they want it. I would recommend taking them aside to critique a recent call or training activity and ask them how they would have done something better or changed the tactic to better the outcome. These types of table-top drills for folks that lack institutional experience can develop their thought processes and help them to make better decisions in the field when your life or a civilian life may be the one on the line.
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