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good ole boy system
what do all of you fine firefighters out there think of this system? I am not going to mention any specific names so we will call it station "bravo". officers are ranked based on old friendships, and solely upon how your known. credentials and certifications have nothing to do with weather or not you are an officer. your thoughts and views upon this? i have heard several FFs that hold many certifications are not officers, while training officers, and captains hold no CERTS beyond your basic nims.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Chief_Ed on
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I wrote a short article about a topic similar to this on another website:
http://firelink.monster.com/training/articles/17280-whats-more-impo...
In my humble (?) opinion, CERTS alone do not make a firefighter or officer; knowing what to do, DOES. Those lessons can come from experience, or a classroom, or whatever other method gets the job done.
Your officers should be the best person for the job they hold. As an organization, you owe it to yourselves and your members to keep training the younger or less experienced guys, because, believe it or not, we ALL were there once.
The people in positions today, may not be there tomorrow, so keep the pipeline filled with people ready to take charge when the axe is passed! Train, practice, drill, attend classes, and learn! Getting a position JUST because of who you are is stupid and ridiculously dangerous.
We also have a specification for becoming an officer. It is loosely based on the recommendations put out by the IAFC on minimum requirements for officer positions. My guess is that most departments, like mine, would have a hard time filling the requirements, therefore, we put together a slightly less ambitious set of requirements. We have, however, included the IAFC requirements as our recommendations for the positions...
Stay Safe!
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Permalink Reply by Dale G on
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I was a member of a Vol. dept that ran that way and still does. I was removed for making waves and trying to get the members who train and keep up to date placed as officers, it was brought up that I pushed training to much and was removed as First Asst. and 6 months later voted off againest their own By-laws.I'm now the training Officer on a neighboring dept. but still live in the others town,Talk about tension on mutal aid calls on their part that is.There is so much crap going on that other Departments have called on others further away for aid sad. Yes experience is important,but telling new members that training is of no concern it takes common sense to fight fires thats what worrys me.
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Permalink Reply by Bull on
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Unforunatly its just a matter of time, and something really bad will happen. Then when someone gets seriously hurt or killed, it will be to late. And when OSHA comes in and does there investigation, they will really wish that they were up on all there trainings. They ultimatly could close down the whole fire dept, and then the community as a whole suffers because of some ignorant people that think...." That doesnt happen here" attitude.
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Permalink Reply by Andy Turnham on
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It sends cold shivers down my back whenever I hear of Departments that operate like this. Qualification, experience and ability are the factors that should decide who does what in a Fire Department. Anything else is playing with peoples lives.
I'm not from the US and I truly struggle trying to understand how a country that is a world leader in so many areas can still support such an archane system. In most countries this sort of nepotism disappeared in the 1800s.
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Permalink Reply by Aric Stewart on
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Devan
Something someone should ask these guys who are in these officer positions if they are ready to set in a courtroom and be basically interrogated for their actions at a fatal fire. Because ultimately the responsibility falls on them when something goes pair shaped at a scene. They won't just be asking them those questions in the court room they will find other officers from other departments to ask them if they would have done what said officers did at that fire scene. If they are NIMS compliant they should know this because it is taught in all aspect of the NIMS training.
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Permalink Reply by Jackie Wagganer on
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Being on a similar dept. for 14 years had left a bad taste in my mouth. When I became Chief last year, I eliminated that system without the need of SOP's, bylaws, etc. Our dept. is municipal in nature. I advised our City Administrator that I was "accepting resumes" for Officer's positions and told him why. He had no issues with it and nothing was in writing to support/stop it. I then took the resumes to the Chief of a neighboring community. He then recommended, based on training and experience, who to place where. (The City Administrator still had final approval of all Officer's.) Of course the neighboring Chief had met these members before on mutual aid calls, but this eliminated the 'good ole boy system' on my dept. I looked at several different methods and this was the best I could find under the circumstances.
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Permalink Reply by lutan1 on
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On one hand you say: I'll take a stab at this one because I may be what you call a good ole boy.
Then you go on to say: I have enough training and credentials to qualify me for this position according to our SOP's.
So in my eyes, that doesn't make you a good old boy. If you didn't have the training ,etc to qualify you for the role, then that's a different story....
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Permalink Reply by Don Catenacci on
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Dude,
I just call them like I see them.
A good leader knows what he knows, shares what he knows, and learns from those that know what he doesn't know. IF you are a good, competent, progressive, fair leader you never need to tell your troops your qualifications for the job. They see them and know them by what you do.
Stay safe,
Don
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Permalink Reply by Devan Mills on
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lol well said
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the answer sheets are provided so they can straight to the test and pass it, so i have heard.
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Permalink Reply by Moose on
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We have this issue in my area BIG time and it frustrates me to no end. I have lost officer elections to other members with not even 1/4 of the training certs I have based soley on the fact they are popular and in the clique. If you are not in the clique in most departments you can forget about being officer based on certs and experience and its pathetic to say the least. In my area the more you make a stink about it the more you are disliked by the membership (who are all trying desperately to make it into the clique and would do whatever they do and say).
Like this year, in November my fire chief nominated me to be her 2nd assistant because she likes my training and experience. I lost to a member who has nothing but an Essentials of Firemanship class he took 15 years ago and does not keep up on current training or refresh any of what little training he has. BUT...he is in with the older members of the department who do not want to change, and these members happen to also be board of commissioners as well, so they elect him and he supports them...politics at its finest where they shouldnt be.
Call me stupid or selfish but, when I go into an Immediately Dangerous to Life and Health (IDLH) atmosphere that others are running out of and counting on us to save their lives and property, I want someone who is well trained, and battle tested in the field for YEARS to lead us and make split second decisions that could either save a life or loose it. Some of these young, gung ho, heart in the right place but lacking valuable experience members that are getting elected to lieutenant and captain scare me. They want to learn yes, but they are not ready to lead firefighters in the heat of the fight. They need to crawl into more fires with experienced firefighters and officers and gain the experience and confidence to be able to make split second decisions that could save a life before they can even think about becoming an officer.
Sorry, end or rant, soap box put away...LOL
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I have made it my personal mantra on all the FDs I am on that while completely understanding that firefighting is dangerous, and knowing that to do it properly I will place myself in harms way, I do not have to follow an order that is stupid, or more dangerous than it has to be.
I am usually asked for an example and this is what I use. We pull up on a 2 story single family dwelling and half the roof is burned off and fire is blowing out of that opening. My company officer looks at me and says get a ladder up and vent the roof. I am going to very politely decline that order because it is both stupid AND more dangerous than it has to be.
Just because someone is an officer does not mean you have to blindly let them get you killed for stupid reasons. I will risk as much as the next guy for good reason and will risk nothing for stupid ones.
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