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Looking for info !!!!!
Does anyone know of any liability lawsuits against Fire Dept's, EMS, or Dispatch centers for NOT paging or asking for extra help ??? EX: EMS responds to a car accident, while working on the patients, a passing vehicle strikes and severly injures or kills one of the EMT's. The family of the EMT now sues dispatch for not paging F.D to help protect scene with apparatus. OR......Homeowner sues F.D for not providing adequete personel for response, and his house burns down ??? ETC............. Im not sure if there is a website with this info or not. Im also looking for your stories as well. Thank you for any info !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Clay Reynolds on
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Good question Bull. I've never heard of anybody getting sued but there have been times when you think it could've happened.
Our dispatch doesn't tell what resources go they'll just dispatch the call to the proper fire/ems dept. and if any mutual aid or anything else is needed you have to request it. There are certain depts. in our area that you know if they get called for a confirmed structure fire they'll wait till they get there and then decide if they want mutual aid.
Our EMS side is covered under the local hospital(protocols) and if you get a call that warrants paramedics and you only got BLS responding and don't request medics you'll hear about it later.
All fire depts. in our area run some type of ems whether transport or non transport so if the call is for a car accident there will be some type of fire apparatus on scene.
I've been hit up by some neighbors or homeowners before at a mutual aid fire on why this or that happened(usually involving something that went wrong) with the initial fire dept. that was on scene but there is no way I'm going to bash another dept. on scene, I usually try to in a tactful way explain that it's just one of those things that can happen at a scene. Later back at the firehouse everybody usually talks amongst themselves about what you can't believe happened at the scene.
A couple of years ago we were dispatched for a house fire and we immediately had mutual aid enroute. One of our first units in the area couldn't find any house fire and we confirmed with dispatch the address/location again and they told us the same address again, by this time mutual aid was on scene. About couple seconds later an officer from the mutual aid dept. said on the radio that he just passed a house on fire which was in their district only a couple thousand feet from their station. No one from the responding mutual aid dept. ever saw it when they were going to their station. Homeowner was a little "pissed" but we went back later and listened to the 911 call recording and it turns out the caller gave the wrong address. No ones fault except for his own.
I'll be interested if there has been any successful lawsuits from homeowners stemming from something being done wrong at a scene.
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Permalink Reply by Michael Harkey on
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Well Bull, I can't answer your question directly, but I recently had almost this same conversation with another local chief. I was looking purely at it from capabilities. Lets say a department is trained and equipped to fight wildland fires, but has only basic training and equipment for structural fires. Could the dispatching authority, who knows or should know this, be sued for failing to dispatch another department to help? This might all depend on mutual aid agreements. The next department might not respond out of district for whatever reason, so the lesser trained and equipped might be all that is available. So I am also curious to see where this post goes. Thanks for posting!!!
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Permalink Reply by Mike Schlags (Captain Busy) Retd on
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I'm not an attorney, and to me this is a legal type of question, but I do have some vague insight and personal opinion that fire departments are exempt from this type of liability unless obvious egregious behavior and actions are taken by the fire department in question.
Decisions as to who gets invited to the party is made by not just the FD, but a collective of many emergency agencies in an organized fashion, kind of a joint command thing where the "liability for any decisions made by the group" is shared among many agencies. Decisions made are done so with the best information available, which shows intent for trying to make the best decision possible.
Anyone can sue anybody for anything. There are no limits. You can't protect yourself from hyper active people with a chip on their shoulder other than following standard operating guidelines, being professional and doing your best.
If there are ever any problems, the most important things to do is:
- Always use and follow the chain of command.
- Document, document, document...
- Be patient, take your time to compile information to support your complaints / observations.
- Find someone else to carry the torch with a higher pay grade.
- Remember that you will amaze yourself at how much you can get accomplished if you don't care who gets the credit.
- If you bitch about something, always have a solution or keep your mouth shut.
And for you Bull, take the following information, give it to your Chief to carry to the local LEPC. By doing this, you get the proverbial liability monkey of your back, again, sharing the identified liability with others so you cannot be singled out. For you, I believe you would contact:
Calumet County Local Emergency Planning Committee
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Permalink Reply by Bull on
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Mike I dont live in that county anymore. Thats where my hometown is. Im part of Forest County now. The reason Im asking is this......Im in the process of trying to get an auto call for Fire and EMS at car accidents where 1 or the other is needed. And trying to get auto page for mutual aid on structure fires. All the Fire and EMS is on board, but some of the towns are unsure. This is why I am looking for info to see if there was ever any issues with liability by NOT having 1 or the other on scene where someone got hurt or killed.
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Permalink Reply by Oldman on
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I don't like the way you look at me. I'm going to sue you! Now, my chances of prevailing are probably somewhere between - slim and none.
I am not an attorney, (although I have stayed in a Holiday Inn Express), my initial impression is this.
Most governmental entities, IE City or County enjoy some form of immunity against lawsuits. Since Dispatch Center are usually operated by the aforementioned entities, there probably wouldn't be much chance of the plaintiff prevailing even if the case were to go to court. The family would have a better chance if they went after the operator of the vehicle which struck the EMT.
I have heard of a couple of instances where a lawsuit was filed against fire departments because of staffing or response. None of the plaintiffs (to my knowledge) have prevailed.
I can tell you with all certainty, my department will never send apparatus, "to help protect scene". IF an engine is called, it will be for "Manpower" (yes we have women on our engines). Now when the engine gets to the scene and just happens to block a lane and it protects the work area, so be it.
Sound like this should be submitted to legal council for their interpretation.
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Well we never know if extrication is neccesary, and or possible fire hazaed as well, not to mention traffic scene protection. This is why we want fire paged. Now keep in mind that our response times range from 5 min to 30 min, depending on where in the county this happened at. It may be a little to late to call for fire if it takes you 15 min to get on scene, and then find out that extrication is needed, add on another 15 min. We are all volunteer, from fire to ems. Our closest hospital is 30 min away at the minimum, without going to the scene, and up to an hour at the furthest. So time is not on our side, which is why we want everyone rolling as soon as possible.
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Permalink Reply by Dylan Ferguson on
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I am not an attorney either, but I did study a little law in college. You have gotten some good information here, municipalities themselves are typically protected by soverign immunity which is what capt busy was elluding to. This protects the city or district or county or however your orginized. In some states this liability will extend to all persons working an emergency scene. Some other states there is no individual protection, so ie the city could get away from a lawsuit very easily while an incident commander is hung out to dry it varies by state so you have to know your laws. I have read many articles about departments being sued for failing to mitigate an emergency properly ( I have never seen one suceed as other posters have stated but that doesnt mean that it hasnt happened) There is a case that I am fowllowing right now in which a property owner is litigating against the local fire department because they only mounted a defensive attack ( I assume based on the conditions present it was the best decision to be made) I dont anticipate the department loosing that case but stranger things have happened. The old adage of the King (city, department , firefighter) can do no wrong has evolved into the royal family shall do nothing wrong. We are going to see more and more litigation such as this in the upcoming years so keep your lawyers on retainer. A final note regardless of the legal implications why is there such a reluctance to send a piece of fire apparatus to a motor vehicle accident, I understand if it comes in as PD only then you do not need fire or EMS. But if it comes in as with injuries and EMS is dispatched why wouldnt you at least send an engine if the mechinism is significant enough to warrant an EMS dispatch then there is the possibility of leaking fluids need for extrication etc etc. I come from the school of thought of get the resources you might need on the road and you can always turn them around. So legally you might be off the hook (or maybe not) but as a department I would not want the moral onus hanging over me of loosing an EMT because I didnt want to send an engine. So my advice is do the right thing at the right time for the right reason it will protect you from litigation and as an added benifit its just the right thing to do.
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Where on earth have you been in the FDN? Your explanation was great. You are someone I certainly would appreciate having in my command staff. I am very impressed how you laid things out. Nice.
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