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What would you do? Is the Scene Safe (or) Not? Watch and Comment
So here is the latest case study of "When is the scene safe or not?" The public feels you took an oath and expect you to rush in even though you could die from the environment.
Where does this end? Does the public expect firefighters to walk into the fully involved building because a loved one has unfortunately perished inside? If not... are you going to be sued for lack of response?
Take a look for yourself...
http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid34762914001?bctid=6...
In my opinion, the Deputy Fire Chief gave the media what they want to hear and should have handled the clarification of their policy differently. As for my crew, I am waiting for three trigger words spoken by the Police Supervisor on scene that "The scene is safe"
Until then, law enforcement officers will have to secure the victim themselves and/or remove him to the fire-rescue staging area while they confront the non-detained assailant.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Norm Tindell on
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Too bad the PD is throwing the FD under the bus here. Sounds like the dispatcher wasn't helping make the communication work between officers and waiting FD units either. Breakdown in communication was the biggest problem, not the policy. In that fire officer's position I would have done the same. Finally, it's a shame when the media doesn't respect a public servant's use of the right to work as safely as possible.
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Permalink Reply by John Dobson on
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In a post I put up a few days back I ask about having the police channel on your fire radio. We don't this is what I dread in are area. IDK if they could or could not talk to each other with out going though dispatch. It sounded as they could not to me. But that was is guess. Again I thought this was what NIMS were for.
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Permalink Reply by James snapp on
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Remember Firefighter safety is number one, and if the house is fully involved then anyone still in side is already dead. Too many Firefighters have died over search recover.
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Permalink Reply by Tom Griswold on
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Thats a no-go situation. Stage in a few blocks away and wait for PD to clear the scene. Safety priority is 1-you,2-partner,3-victims.
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Permalink Reply by Bekks on
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I see several problems here.
1 - Someone turning to the tabloid media to build a civil case for them in order to live off the taxpayers backs. Sorry for a dose of political incorrectness but I'm just calling it as I see it.
2 - Tabloid media (and the organizations that give out "investigative journalism awards")
3 - Lack of proper inter-agency communication and protocols for extricating victims from 'hot' scenes.
4 - Spineless legal advice to the Deputy Fire Chief.
I can't fix the legal system or the social problems in the world... or my tragic affliction with 'political incorrectness'.
I have given up on the media years ago.
So, all that's left for me is number 3.
Sorry, but an unsecure shooting scene is an IDLH situation and requires proper training and PPE.
Are we going to see news stories now where they say, "someone is inside that burning building, go in and get them with out your bunker gear and SCBA"????
And that sound bite at the end "they signed up for it, they just need to do their job"... WTFudge? Uh NO.
When I am a FF or medic, I did not sign up to be SHOT at; I signed up to go into a burning building or get vomitted on. When I put on the police uniform, yes, I accept that I may get shot at. But they give me ballistic armour and I can also put the shooter down.
If you listen or read between the lines, you can see that the reporter decided to attack the FD when the police could have easily been the story: "at one point there were 30 police officers here"; "the suspect was in custody"; "nobody knew where the suspect was"; "the scene was chaotic"; "the police admitted that they never called 'scene safe'" The FD dispatcher was in contact with her crew and the police dispatcher. Where was the Police IC (Sgt?) on scene? It's their call to declare it safe. I am sorry but it sounds to me like the problem rests with the POLICE making "keystone cops" look GOOD.
Maybe they need "Tactical Medics"? Lots of EMS and police agencies have tac medics that roll on SWAT calls.
This wasn't a SWAT call you say?
Then the cops need to make a command decision to make the scene safe to get the medics in or do exactly what they did and extricate the victim themselves.
It just comes down to COMMUNICATION and planning (Before, during and after).
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Permalink Reply by FETC on
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Chief Mike,
Thanks for the comment, having a unified command only opens up lines of communication. I love to teach in a mixed audience, first thing that jumped out at me in your case study, was the Police Command Officer's statement to you.
He told me to go back till we need you, while the officers were still in the house with a couch on fire. After he brought us up, the Sgt. asked to talk to me and he apologized he did not want me in the line of fire.
Incident critique and dialogue.... if you were in the line of fire, so was Police Command.
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Permalink Reply by Mark Klaene on
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First off there is no such thing as a safe scene. We could be called to a kid fallen off his bike and there be a sniper in the window, or maybe the sniper was the caller. We could be treating the boy on the bike and his father come up and not like what we are doing and pull a gun or baseball bat on us. We could be treating a elderly patient with difficulty breathing and because of their dimentia they pull a gun from under their pillow. Don't be fooled when they say "safe scene"
The best we can hope for is a "protected" scene. Meaning that there are PD on scene to HELP protect us.
We have safe scene protocals as well , but just because there are cops on scene and the situation is stabilized doesn't mean it is safe. We still have to be alert and do what we can to protect ourselves including identifying escape routes and safety zones on every scene all the time.
The moral here is that the FD are the only ones that did their job correctly here . They followed SOP and for good reason. If 30 cops can't protect the fire fighters then they sure as heck should not be in there. The FD took the rap here when they should not have. Either the cops/dispatch failed to secure the scene or failed to communicate it. The FD obviously made it very clear what they needed and rightfully so.
The deputy chief should have stood up for his crew, they did their job. As far as changing the policy . This was likely due to only 1 thing--media pressure-- and making policy based on that WILL get a firefighter killed one day. NEVER make reactionary policy , Always be proactive in your policy making and re-evaluate it when necessary but never in haste.
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Well said. More professional sounding than what I was trying to say.
You hit the nail on the head.
Yes, a scene can be protected. "Safe" is an relative term. That "safe-ish" word again.
I had a call back in MY EMS days where someone tried to kill a guy with an axe to the head. We were told to stage 'til the police said it was okay.
When the word came, the assailant was still on the loose, but the police said they would protect us, and they did.
Six cops, two securing our vehicles and the only places the suspect might come at us from, and the other four in a circle around us with their body armor and guns. I felt "safe enough".
The police sent one officer along in the back of our rig and ran an escort for us to the hospital. The victim was seriously injured but still semi-conscious, violent and had a criminal history (despite being the 'victim').
This was typical of our working relationship in our area.
I felt safe with six calm, cool and professional cops.
I am totally with the Capt. holding off in THIS case, with 30 cops running around and nobody can clear their adrenaline dump long enough to assess the safety of the scene... I call that a job well done.
I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by six.
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Permalink Reply by WestPhilly on
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If I'm following this correctly, there were some thirty cops on location, and at least some of them with the patient. I would have considered that a "safe scene" and gone in to treat and transport.
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but the issue is they were not there , the only thing they knew is what dispatch was telling them and dispatch kept saying the scene was NOT (by omission) safe.
I agree that with 30 cops they could likely have provided a protected scene BUT if they can't pull it together enough to say it then how could the FD know that they would pull it together enough to actually protect your crew.
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Mark, We have had some of these types of calls and your right the communication factor is what drives the fire or EMS officer to say were going in or not. The dispatcher is literally just a link in the communications loop.
In my area, we are able to monitor the PD frequency on our radios as well. Any SWAT entry, hostage or shooting incident while not a fire or EMS scene to command, gets a response to stage a safe location and a fire department liason, (shift commander or chief officer) positioned in the incident command post. Working under a unified command. This better equips you to manage your personnel when the time comes to activate them from a safe staging point and enter the scene.
As Jack/DT mentioned, the hollywood bank heist shooting that lasted 48 minutes, I don't remember anybody screaming for an ambulance and many were seriously wounded. The PD recscued their own after commendeering an armoured bank car.
If this story was the opposite, lets say a firefighter or EMT was shot at a non-secured scene, the media would be barking how the rest of the world waits until the scene is secured before entry.
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Permalink Reply by Spanner 122 on
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Sure makes for a great story. I did hear Police calling for the rescue, but also the dispatcher declaring the scene has not been declared safe. We have our codes. Code blue is police presence required, code blue one means weapons. I have only responded once to weapons present and we did have to stage until it was determined to be a false alarm (Alzheimer's patient). We were chomping at the bit and yes we did enter the building to speak to lobby staff as there was no one else updating us. Communications between services fails all the time when you have separate 911 call services. All calls go to police here, you then state your emergency and the call is transferred to the priority responders, they then call in additional services, such as fire being added to medical calls. It's a broken system in my opinion and the only ones who have and will continue to suffer are the public.
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