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Differences in Civilian and RIT Rescue
So I was reading a FF magazine, and in it was an article about different sets of tactics for civillian and FF rescue. And in this article it mentioned that there are some dept's that train the same way either for rescuing a civillian or rescuing a firefighter. It then goes on to give some differences between each type of rescue and why they should not be treated the same as far as tactics go. Different things to keep in mind while performing a search for a homeowner or a firefighter.
I have 2 questions/polls or whatever you wanna call it regarding this topic:
#1- Be honest, are there any dept's out there that DO train the same way for rescuing a civillian or rescuing a firefighter? Personally, I know of none around here.
#2- What would be some differing tactics between the two? For example: searching for a civilian usually is focused in the most common areas (near windows,doors or in the actual fire location). Searching for a firefighter is different as he/she could be anywhere within the structure. Another example would be dragging a civilian out who is wearing likely minimal clothing as opposed to a firefighter who is fully dressed in PPE and other tools. A little more difficult.
I hope this generates many comments, not only for myself, but for others who might be curious.
Thanks. stay safe and have fun.
I have 2 questions/polls or whatever you wanna call it regarding this topic:
#1- Be honest, are there any dept's out there that DO train the same way for rescuing a civillian or rescuing a firefighter? Personally, I know of none around here.
#2- What would be some differing tactics between the two? For example: searching for a civilian usually is focused in the most common areas (near windows,doors or in the actual fire location). Searching for a firefighter is different as he/she could be anywhere within the structure. Another example would be dragging a civilian out who is wearing likely minimal clothing as opposed to a firefighter who is fully dressed in PPE and other tools. A little more difficult.
I hope this generates many comments, not only for myself, but for others who might be curious.
Thanks. stay safe and have fun.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by larry jenkins on
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There us some good info here. Other things to consider. When we search for victims sometimes we have no idea if they are in the structure or their location. For them it is a routine task but a RIT event is high pressure and it is one of your own. Either one you must stay calm but when it is a firefighter it's hard not to get excited. Staffing for a search can be as little as two firefighter where a RIT may take several companies. Don't forget about the fire. Put it out and some of the problem goes away. Then PPV the structure to vent for life, but keep hoselines ready for ant flare ups.
Searching for victims is utilizing a typical search pattern until the task is complete. A downed firefighter is completly different. Hopfully their pass alarm is sounding and you can pinpoint the location. The IC should know their last location. Which should give you some direction.
Derek R. mentioned that their SCBA doesn't have buddy breathing connectors, I'm not sure but I think they are required by NFPA.
Ben you mention URC. I have not seen these before. Are they NFPA approved? We talked about doing this years ago to adapt to neighboring deparments by was told the SCBA manufactor would deny any claim if the system failed.
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Permalink Reply by Derek R. on
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Derek R. mentioned that their SCBA doesn't have buddy breathing connectors, I'm not sure but I think they are required by NFPA.
We have 2 packs, which we just bought, that have the buddy breathing system on them. Like I said, we are slowly phasing them out, but it takes time when you have only so many dollars to play with.
As far as pinpointing a downed firefighter, I like Ben's system ( UCAN ) as described in his blog. You should check it out. IC knows where everyone is at all times.
Thanks for sharing your info.
keep safe and have fun.
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Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on
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The NFPA 1981 (SCBA) standard requires URCs on any SCBA manufactured since 2002. The current (2007) edition has the URC requirement as well. Some vendors (ISI, notably) call the device a Universal Air Connector (UAC), but URC is the standard term.
An example of the URC can be found in the MSA Firehawk user manual.
URCs are required so that any SCBA can transfill any other SCBA with the same cylinder pressure and approximate filled volume designs. When transfilling, the donor SCBA should be full, as the pressure/volume of usable air will equalize, giving the recipient 1/2 cylinder of air if his cylinder is expended when the transfill starts. The donor SCBA acts like a small, portable, one-cylinder cascade system.
3,000 PSI SCBA can transfill 2216 SCBAs and vice versa.
4,500 PSI SCBA can only transfill another 4,500 PSI SCBA, because a flul 4,500 can pressurize a 2216 past its design limits even at half full.
URCs are standard on the left hip of the SCBA pack frame in the rear. It is not the best location, but you can get to it if the downed firefighter is face down and not buried. You probably can't get to your own without doing a low-profile manever.
MSA also has a chest-mounted option for a second URC. We had these on our pre-2002 units, but don't have them on the newer models. I miss them - it made transfills a lot easier, particularly when wearing the oven mitts.
Homemade URCs are not approved by any manufacturer. Virtually every SCBA vendor will be able to offer an upgrade to a URC system or trade-ins of old SCBAs on newer ones with URCs.
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Permalink Reply by John Crabbe on
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4,500 PSI SCBA can only transfill another 4,500 PSI SCBA, because a flul 4,500 can pressurize a 2216 past its design limits even at half full.
Yes, but you can still use a 4500 to fill a 2216. This was a concern for us when MABAS was implemented here and we were told we would be providing a RIT team as an automatic aid to a neighboring volly dept. They have 4500 and we have 2216 and this was a concern. We were told some conflicting info and finally did training using a 4500 to fill a 2216 and it does work, the relief valve on the 2216 will blow off when the pressure is past the 2216. This shouldn't be a standard practice, but you can use a 4500 to pressurize a 2216 and vice versa.
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John,
Check the MSA user's guide linked above.
They state that 4,500 PSI cylinders should only transfill other 4,500 PSI cylinders.
The best option is to get everyone on 4,500 cylinders. That way the crews have more work time and more emergency reserve air time if you use the Rule of 1/3s for air management, plus there are no potential issues with using different pressure SCBAs for transfills.
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Permalink Reply by CAPNCRNCH on
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Ben, I believe the wording of your explanation to be a little misleading, " urc's are required so that any scba can transfill any other scba" this is not true, only MSA can transfill from one scba to another, any other brand will need a dedicated rit pak with the female urc connection to perform the transfill.
MSA has a patent on the two way transfill valve, all other brands have a one way transfill valve. That being said, an MSA can transfill to anyone with a urc as long as the pressure is right, SCOTT can buddy breath, but it is not the same as transfilling, the cylinders never equalize during the process.
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Thanks guys. Appreciate the info here. This is good to know since we are starting to replace packs it seems. Gives me more info to look up as well.
Derek
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That's what it's called on our SCOTT packs,.."buddy Breather".
I was wondering about the compatability with msa's and others.
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Of course the best option would be to get everyone onto 4500 systems, that just isn't going to happen anytime soon and the issue has to be addressed now. However, despite what the mfg "recommends" it does work to use a 4500 bottle to refill a 2216. Like I said, there was conflicting info about doing so, one person saying you can do it once and that's it, to you can do so any time, to difference between mfg's and so forth. (we use Scott 2216, most others have MSA 4500)
In the end the dept did an extensive RIT training, including SCBA familiarization, buddy breathing, refilling with a 4500 bottle to a 2216 and so forth. It does work, it doesn't blow the seals as one person stated, it does not render the pack useless afterwards, it does as I described, the bottle fills and excess pressure is blown off through the relief valve, you disconnect and you can refill again if needed. (you do lose out some pressure due to the cylinder getting heated in the procedure, but it is better than no air at all)
Being one of the first crews to be told this is what we would be doing and that we were going to the neighbor dept to check out their equipment, this is the issue that was looked at....how we are going to get air to a downed FF with a different SCBA. At first it was...you use "our" RIT pack. OK, fine and dandy, but what if it is one of us who goes down...and hence the issue as mentioned. This was the most cost effective and immediate solution to the issue and I would have a tough time believing something if I didn't see it with my own eyes, we refilled numerous times with a 4500 bottle to a 2216 when training and even the SCOTT rep was contacted about doing so etc, it can and does work.
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That's what it's called on our SCOTT packs,.."buddy Breather".
I was wondering about the compatability with msa's and others.
Kind of like how I described in our situation, we use SCOTT, neighbors use MSA. Buddy breathing is just with SCOTT and not all packs have them on (we have some older packs that don't have the capabilities but those are almost entirely replaced).
The buddy breather does not interchange between mfg's. If you have used the buddy breather, you know you are connected with another FF and the pack with least air is used first between both of you before the other pack is used. There is no refill capability with buddy breathing. The issue with the URC and as Capncrnch alludes to you need a URC to refill between different mfg's, but you can plug an MSA into the quick fill port of the SCOTT and can refill the scba. We have the URC on our RIT bags to refill an MSA with our SCOTT, but buddy breathing is different than quick fill.
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Buddy breathing systems and transfill systems are NOT the same thing.
A buddy breather system essentially changes a single SCBA into a two-user SCBA with half the air supply for both firefighters. A buddy breathing system does not exchange air between one SCBA cylinder and another.
A URC/transfill system, on the other hand, moves air from one cylinder to another until the pressures equalize. You can keep using the URC over and over if needed.
The disadvantage of a buddy breather is that you breathe the air twice as fast, then both firefighters are out of air. Buddy breathers were designed for very short-term use, primarily if one firefighter has a SCBA problem like a 1st stage regulator failure during a fire attack. That lets two company members bail out together for a short distance, and that's about it. Duddy breathers are common only on 2002 and later Scott models, and are not compatible with other vendor's SCBA.
The advantage of a URC/transfill system is that it can be used in a prolonged firefighter entrapment, it can be used with a RIT pack, and it can even be used with a supplied air system if you have enough hose to reach the trapped firefighter from the outside.
URCs and transfill systems are compatible between different makes and models of SCBA, with the pressure limitations described in an above post.
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The only disadvantage to the SCOTT duel EBSS is that the users will be tethered together until they exit the IDLH atmosphere. If one MSA user with 2000 psi transfills to another MSA user with 1000 psi, then their cylinders will equalize to 1500 psi for each cylinder. If a SCOTT user with 2000 psi connects his EBSS to a SCOTT user with 1000 psi, then they will both breath from the lowest pressure cylinder until it is basically empty, and then will automatically breath from the higher pressure cylinder. So basically both the users of MSA and SCOTT will still share 3000 psi between two people, so I cant see where the SCOTT users will breathe their air supply twice as fast.
I may be reading too much into what you are saying, so I will take the blame for that but when you use the term SCBA, that to me means the whole airpack that we wear. And I am trying to make sure that people with less experience are aware that MSA is the only SCBA that actually has a hose that will fit the URC, if the users of SCOTT or any other brand want to use the URC to assist a firefighter in need of air, that they will need a RIT PAK with the high pressure hose and female URC connection.
Ben, I am not trying to split hairs with you, just trying to make sure everyone is on the same page.
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