Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by TrainingTECH1 on June 25, 2009 at 10:34am

Our class is pretty much the same stuff. Many areas require a Haz-mat course as a prerequisite.

Permalink Reply by Daniel Bacigalupo on August 25, 2009 at 8:16pm

Hi there!! I'm Daniel from Perú. Actually the last Thursday we started a CSR training, which I lead, and we do it in 24 hours. I do this training based on SOP of a Phoenix FD and a Book from a Spanish author. I'll appreciate if you can send me information for improve my course.
Another question: we are using two lines for lowering and raising system, an Z pulley system and belay like a safety line. (both of them for lowering and raising), in total we use an Z pulley system and a belay for each rescuer.
Did you think we are doing the correct thing? We use it in this way for ensure a that both rescuers have theirs own raising system in case of an emergency.


Keep safe.

Permalink Reply by lutan1 on August 25, 2009 at 11:42pm

Jeff, why would HAZMAT be a pre-requisite?

Just becasue it's a confined space, doesn't mean it has a HAZMAT component (ate least under our Legislation).

Permalink Reply by lutan1 on August 25, 2009 at 11:44pm

Daniel, I'm not a fan of twin rope- I beleive we can overcomplicate things by doing this.

Having said that, I have one team that I teach that insist on running a 4:1 raising system as the main line and as a back up they run a second 11mm rope through a descender (as a belay). They then rig that into a Z pull if the main fails or snags.

Permalink Reply by Daniel Bacigalupo on September 7, 2009 at 6:14pm

Thanks for your opinion.
Did you have any trainning information that we can use here? Maybe your SOP or a paper that we can use like a reference? I will appreciate your help.

keep safe.

Permalink Reply by TrainingTECH1 on September 20, 2009 at 4:15pm

US legislation says that there must be a retreival system attached to entrants in a confined space that contains hazards. This is easiest accomplished by using a 4:1 MA to act as the raising/lowering system, and seperate line used as a belay. Many industrail teams use a winch and a rope or self-retracting cable.

The cable systems are expensive and, in the US, must be inspected regulary. This becomes a cost factor and is why many rescue agencies use rope based systems.

Let me also point out that is all that is needed to enter the space is to climb down a ladder, fall protection is generally all that is used. Therefore a 1 rope system is used.

On another note...ihave had the opportunity to teach classes in South America and have turned them down because I couldn't find a Spanish book. What text are you using?

Thanks!

Jeff

Permalink Reply by TrainingTECH1 on September 20, 2009 at 4:18pm

It's been awhile since I have used the standard for confined space, but am 99.9% sure Haz-Mat training is required for the confined space rescue team in NFPA 1670. Not sure if NFPA 1006 mentions it or not.

Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on September 20, 2009 at 4:34pm

Jeff, NFPA 1006 is the individual professional qualifications standard. In order to be a Level II Rescuer (formerly known as a Technician) you must have Level II Rope Rescue qualifications, Level I (Operations) level Hazmat qualifications, and the qualifications for the level of confined space rescue at which you're working.

The rationale is that a lot of industrial confined spaces involve hazardous materials in the space, so anyone entering the space should be qualified to deal with the hazmat problem found there.

Permalink Reply by Ben Waller on September 20, 2009 at 4:36pm

U.S. OSHA requires dual line systems with fall arrest capability for confined space entry and rescue. (29 CFR 1910.146)

A single-rope system is an acceptable alternative if:

1) The tag line would create an entanglement hazard or otherwise create a hazard worse than the one it is intended to abate.
2) The configuration of the space renders makes the tag line unusable.
3) Alternative access/egress is available.

The presence of a ladder does not eliminate the requirement for a mechanical advantage system and an overhead high directional system to be present. However, if the rescuer tag line is tended/belayed and the rescuer becomes incapacitated, then the mechanical advantage system can be piggybacked onto the tag line as long as the tag line progress can be captured when the rescuer is raised out of the space.

Permalink Reply by lutan1 on September 20, 2009 at 4:45pm

So the HAZMAT component is related to a particular set of qualifications, not the actual confined space itself?

They're saying that to be this Level II rescuer, you need to have HAZMAT, but from a legislative perspective, you don't have to have HAZMAT to enter a space.

I know what I'm trying to say- don't think it makes sense though...!

Permalink Reply by TrainingTECH1 on September 21, 2009 at 12:56am

Hmmm...Never heard of a mandatory 2 rope system in 1910.146. I know section k part 3 discusses retreival systems, but haven't seen the part about a 2 rope system. I have been to many industrial complexes and have only seen typical fall protection such as a self-retracting lifeline with secondary winch for descending/ascending ladders into confined spaces.

Can you provide additional info like the standard section and subpart? I would like to have that to file away so I can point that out to folks. Could this have been in teh fall proctection standard?

Permalink Reply by TrainingTECH1 on September 21, 2009 at 1:30am

I looked it up and as I mentioned NFPA 1670 requires NFPA 472 chapter 5 (Operations) for the Confined Space team operating at any level.

A little more insight to other readers (Ben I am certain you know the technical workings of the standards.)

One of the downsides of 1006 is the lack of printed prerequisites. NFPA 1006 is a core/plus standard. That is 1006 Chapter 5 is the core and the specific discipline chapter is the "plus". It would be so much easier if the standard just said "To meet Confined Space Level II you have to have...." Some of this is implied in the annex of 1006. For instance, in confined space the annex talks about the haz-mat knowledge the rescuer should have; clearly to the level of 472 Operations, but doesn't come out and say "Must have Haz-Mat Ops". One reason the pre-req's are not printed is that NFPA 1001 (Firefighter Standard) includes many of them and it is also assumed you will get firefighter certification before rescuer certification.

In my opinion, NFPA has done too good a job on the rescue standards. The original intent for the professional qualification standards delt with fire departments. Now many other agencies (non-firefighting agencies) are using the NFPA standards to train rescuers and therefore are not aware of "built-in" prerequisites. I hope that makes sense.

Ben - Your HH guy (don't want to use names without his permission) on the committee is a good friend and an excellent resource for info on this. I'm sure you all use his expertise down there regularly! You may have more insight.

Sorry for getting off topic Luke!

One more thing...Don't get confused between the NFPA standards and the legislative purpose of OSHA. One deals with confined space entry (and very little rescue), the other with actual rescue team and professional requirements to perform the rescue.

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