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Who should be in charge of the apparatus while responding to the scene?
This topic comes up when I am assigned to engineer. I believe that the engineer should have the say what goes on inside the cab while the vehicle is in motion. My reason is if your involve in a wreck who is going to be sited. In a case that happen in a county next to mine a quint responding code 3 T-Boned a car a killed the occupants inside. The driver tried in court for the deaths, and the local media covered the story only on the driver. My understanding is that the officer riding in the appropriate seat was not charged or any actions taken. Only internal. With this accident speed was a factor and responding to a general alarm drop. Looking for opinions on this and if some dept's have SOG's on the topic.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Capt. Jeff Lee on
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There is an Officer on that truck for a reason. The Engineer needs to be focused on getting that crew there safely. The Officer is in charge of the truck, He,or she, has a responsibility to make sure the crew is ready to go and acts appropriatly on the way there. And at the same time make sure the Engineer is driving accordingly.
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Permalink Reply by firefighter schoening on
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i think it should be the capt. or the driver. cuz they are both upfront and they both know what is on and out side of that engine rescue ladder or what ever it may be.
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Permalink Reply by Childressfirefighter36 on
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On our fire department, it is the senior man, or paid fireman. If the our main truck responds to a wreck for example, the paidman on the truck can cancel any another unit responding to the scene, and that goes with any incident. And if the main truck called or the jaws in mid route, and gets to the scene, and doesn't need the jaws he can cancel the other unit. And all fireman, paid or volunteer have got to have a CDL to operate any fire truck. Our by-laws state that any fireman in an emergency can drive a firetruck to the scene, but has to have a CDL to drive it back to the station.
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Permalink Reply by Luke Summers on
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I would say you need some clearly defined SOG's. As far as what they should be is a matter each fire dept has to figure out as every dept is different. If your going to a call requiring full turnouts and SCBA's i believe you should have all your turnouts on when you step into the truck. I know its a little different if your caught when your returning to the station. I know of some depts that if the truck is just out and about and gets called to a structure fire for example they require the engineer to pull over, stop the truck and the crew gets suited up before the truck moves again. Whatever works for your dept is fine, i have been engineer before and had my view blocked by the officer or firefighter in charge before, its not fun but you have to just let them know to get out of you view.
As for who should be in charge of the truck while responding can be an interesting subject. While the officer/firefighter in charge has control of the crew its the engineer who decides if the veh is going to move or not. You arent doing anyone justice if you dont make it to the scene at all. While the officer has to make decisions on the way to the fire, its also up the other firefighters to know their role when they get there. I believe its just as much the officers job to watch the road as it is the engineers. So here we go....
1.The engineer has ultimate control of the truck itself, if he see's something thats not right he needs to take action. Like i said, if you dont get there your not doing anyone any good.
2.Its both the engineer and officers job to ensure everyone is properly seated and belted in, however they also need to do this for each other as well. But in all actuality if everyone is not properly seated and belted the engineer has the control to keep the truck stopped until its corrected.
3.The officer should be held to the same standards as the engineer. Yes it was the engineers fault he was speeding, but the officer should have said something. Its not hard to tell from the officers seat that your going to fast.
4.When approaching intersections in my dept the driver has control of the left hand side and the officer has control of the right hand side, the officer will then tell the driver "clear" or "procede" this takes a little bit of the stress off the driver with having to watch the whole area.
5.The driver and officer need to watch eachothers backs while enroute. Both are just as responsible for the safety of the crew and the public when responding. They should both work together, communicaiton is the biggest key.
Just remember, if you dont get there you arent doing anyone any good. The officer is ultimately in charge of the whole crew(engineer included). But the engineer has the power to dictate if the truck even leaves the station or not. So whatever your dept feels is the right choice to the "who's in charge while responding" is completely up to them, but just keep some of these ideas in mind.
STAY SAFE OUT THERE!!!!
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Permalink Reply by Drew Tenhundfeld on
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Kevin
In the situation that I described above the driver alone was left standing. As far as the officer I think the dept. did a internal. He was not mentioned in any lawsuit. The driver never returned to work and was put on sucide watch for the period of time. I didn't hear the outcome after that.
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Permalink Reply by Scotty335 on
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When my apparatus is in motion whether responding to or returning from a call, I am in charge of my ladder truck. I am the only one sitting behind the wheel, I have the only accelerator and brake pedals, therefore I am in control of my machine and I make the decisions where we go. I don't mean to take any authority away from my Lt. but, that is my job.
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Permalink Reply by Jim Brunelle Jr. on
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Who ever sits in that officer's seat is in charge, and if a firefighter isn't expierenced enough to make the calls that firefighter should not be in that seat. Its a very big responsiblities.
Case closed.
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Don't take it the wrong way but your job is to operate that piece of apparatus and that is all,to get to and from your point of destination.You should be concentrating on nothing but the road. If your distracted buy the radio,playing with the siren or worring about anything other than driving the apparatus than you are jeapordizing the lives of all in that piece of apparatus. And as far as going where you want that could prove fatal if you place it wrong and the officer knows he needs you in another place, ie; water supply,or set up in a certain potition to make a save with "your" ladder.
not a positive attitude.
Again, just constructive thinking.
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Permalink Reply by Tanner Sittig on
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I pulled a few quotes from my fundamentals of firefighting book for school, which is sponsored by nfpa and the iafc, the first is on doning equipment in the apperatus, "do not attempt to dress while the while the apperatus is on the road, but rather wait until you dismount at the incident scene to do any ppe that was not donned prior to mounting the apperatus." The second is on the who's responsible, " The driver is legally responsible for the safe operations at all times." That clears it up enough for me.
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Permalink Reply by Bill Costanzo on
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My 2 cents is that they are both responsible. The driver must make driving decisions and use his own due regard at intersections and traffic devices but the officer through training and doing his job sets the tone for what is accepatble. If the officer is screaming at his driver to move faster the driver should offer him the wheel, if the driver is being reckless the officer should slow him down or replace him. 2 cents only....
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Permalink Reply by Ron Maddox on
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As a Lieutenant on a combination department, I can tell you that the person, either an officer or senior man riding as officer, in the right seat in our department is in charge. He/she needs to direct the members in the back as well as help the engineer with intersections, passing and control his/her driving habbits and speed. My job starts the moment the call comes in, I need to picture what I may need and what we need to do. And I need you to watch the road and get me there, everything else is not your worry. The officer should even tell the engineer where and how to place a truck, he/she has others coming in and you need to pump.. I don't mean to sound harsh but the engineer should not concern himself/herself with anything but driving, thats what your officer is for. I f that does not happen you need to speak with your officer corp, or the chief and explain the situation. Ron
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Permalink Reply by Paul Acosta on
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We tell our engineers, the truck doesn't move until everyone is secured. We're blessed to have a couple of law enforcement guys on our department and they are a great resource for these types of questions. We went to Florida in January and they had an awesome attorney from Texas, I believe, and he really opened quite of bit of eyes. Jim Juneau was his name. Look him up. He's offered many to come out and visit with their departments
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