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Permalink Reply by John on February 25, 2009 at 9:21am

Well to start with the family issue that sure doesn't help while trying to teach, I think I would tell him in private that either he needs to go along with your training regimen to the troops or that you will turn over all training to him since you out rank him, having another officer do that undermines the chain of command. As for them always wanting hands on, what we do here is that we have a little class room time to set up what we are about to do then we go out and perform the evolution, sometimes multiple times. The attendence problem if it were me I would just take them out of service so to speak, have them maintain a certain percentage of training attendence, and if not tell them they are not allowed to run on calls til they make up training, and it may help to have multiple days for training where you can get some of them to show up, we have 1 nighttime session and 2 daytime ones.
Hope I have helped somewhat

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Permalink Reply by Rob on February 25, 2009 at 9:46am

Got no good ideas on dad, but the rest of the issues need to start with the chief doing something about following SOP/SOG's. This might mean sending a guy to instructor class who is available for daytime trainings. Your problem with attendance and the chants from the peanut gallery for more hands on is not a unique one. I just left a department that was all volunteer (with about 5 or 6 Part Time to help cover medic in the daytime) and we had the same issues. Out of 30 we had on a good month 5 or 6 show up. The department I am at now actually gave everyone letters in November who's training percentage was below min. and gave them 60 days to get it back in line or face suspension. Will the chief stick to it, anyone's guess but I bet so since the state now has mandatory recert for firefighters which like EMT has a certain number of hours you must have to recert and the chief has to sign off on it if you are audited so it is his rump if he falsifies. Folks need to realize that the "that's the way we do it here mentality" has got to stop. My last department had a 300' 2" preconnect because of one structure in the district. Even after lessons learned from the Oscar Armstrong fatality in Cincy the chief refused to switch it so we did not have 300' of death trap on our rig. It took almost a year to get him to switch to a 2 1/2 with a gated wye and run the 1 3/4 off of that because "that was not how we did it" for the 20+ years he had been on. It might actually take sending some guys to outside trainings so they see what the rest of the world is doing before they start to understand where you are coming from.

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Permalink Reply by Oldman on February 25, 2009 at 10:05am

I'm there with you bro!

I believe you are a member of a BIG club. I have the same issues here, and have even quit posting the training schedule because people started to pick and choose when they wanted to show up. Now when I'm asked "what are we doing for training tonight"? I tell them they will have to show up to find out. I also do not pass around the sign in sheet until after class. If they want credit, they have to stick around. I had a few that would sign in and then; oh I forgot I have to do..... and leave.

While I don't have a father on the department anymore, I still have a son and daughter and an ex. I've told them, when we are in an official setting, incident or class, it is Captain to firefighter, not father to son/daughter. Sit down with your father, and tell him point blank, this is what you are doing, this is how it appears to the rest of the class, and it has to stop. You can be direct and to the point but remain tactful. If that doesn't stop it, pull rank on him, in front of the class if necessary.

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Permalink Reply by Jake Luker on February 25, 2009 at 10:07am

That's alluding to the fairness part.... I know I need a daytime training option for the guys who can't make the evening sessions. Problem is I don't have anyone willing to step up to do training during the day (when I'm at work). There are a few captains who might possibly be available during the day. I've approached them about doing training for the daytime crews. I told them I'd even supply them with the materials and lesson plan, all they had to do was go over it with the guys. No interest....

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Permalink Reply by Jake Luker on February 25, 2009 at 10:14am

I realize that training once a month is probably not enough. Most of our surrounding departments, both in our county and neighboring counties, meet at least once a week, including training, business meetings, officer meetings, and work nights. We meet twice a month, once for training and once for business. I'd love to do more training, but again, if I've only got a handful showing up for one a month, I doubt I'll get more for twice or more a month.

Your "15-20 folks not doing anything" comment has been tossed around several times recently, and by folks other than me. The thought is at least we'd have 10-12 well trained guys who are up on everything, because the other 15-20 aren't contributing much anyway.. Not sure which way I want to lean on that yet, but it has been mentioned by several people.. :-)

We've improved on the "boy's club" atmosphere compared to the way it was when I got on. However, we've still got a ways to go. They all give me grief for always being so serious when we're training or meeting. I can't get across to them that I care about them A. as a chief officer (they're my responsibility) and B. as a brother/sister firefighter.

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Permalink Reply by Jake Luker on February 25, 2009 at 10:17am

I'd love to make some minimum requirements for certification (outside of what the state requires, which is minimal). However, that would eliminate half the membership. The younger generation I've been able to instill the enthusiasm for continued education, and they are making efforts to gain certification (slowly but surely). However the older group (age 35+), which makes up half of the department, is busy with family, etc. and doesn't participate near enough.

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Permalink Reply by Jake Luker on February 25, 2009 at 10:20am

Would love to get a daytime guy as an instructor. However, in Indiana, you have to have a couple prereq certs before they let you be an instructor. As of right now, there aren't too many others on the dept. that meet that qualification. We do have some of the younger generation working towards those prereqs, (slowly but surely). See the reply to John's post above. I'd even settle for an officer who isn't an instructor, but can't even get that.

Sticking to the SOGs is a goal of mine, but enforcing it fairly is where I run into the issue (see daytime argument).

The "way we do it here" mentality has also improved since I've been on. Again, we've gotten better, but still have a ways to go.

I guess I'm wanting change quicker than everyone else. :-)

The only thing constant is change... :-)

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Permalink Reply by FETC on February 25, 2009 at 10:26am

Jake,

I commend you on your honesty and you are right, in the fact that you are not alone on some of the issues at hand.

First off, you need to face the fact that of your 30 members - only 10 are really active. This is the 1/3 or 1/4 percent rule. Pretty standard percentage that I see in most smaller volunteer departments. Second, you still being a fairly young officer (I mean in time served within the department) the fact that you are the most certified person in the department means little to the men or women who are disrespecting you. This is actually one of the reasons they probably do it. (small amount of time served, tons of classes, go getter, making yourself better) You see it as an asset, they see it as a know it all. So with that said, don't pull the "I am the most trained person here", it will only aggrevate the issues further. Your department is small with only a few runs per year, so it is more of a challenge for some to realize the importance of training because I suspect it is a social status to be on your department and not for the amount of "work" or "serving the people" mentality. This is just one reason your attendance is low, they want the gear and the glory but not everything that come with being a VFF. (dislike the tasks, chores, structure, that are difficlut or non-heroic)

I commend the fact that you have a SOG about traning attendance. Not enforcing it is another issue on poor attendance, but with that I am sure the rest of the manual is not being enforced as well. So how do we fix all of these things to make your training issues better for you the training officer?

Well I get paid fairly well to consult with FD's over these very same issues. I have a few moments and will drop a few suggestions. Now me coming in from the outside (as a third party) is easier as I have no loyalty, committment or in the network with anyone. Now by you trying to suggest or implement these very same things... it is going to be more difficult as compared to getting a written consultation report from me to read, publish to the membership, and implement down the road.

Can it be done, yes but it takes alot of tac to create positive behavioral modification of an entire organization. Not going to happen overnight. This would be a full year organizational re-structuring plan.

I will give you the basics to start with:

Chief Officer's Meeting: Discussing the lack of enforcement of your SOG's. This may be because of a few reasons. God Old Boy System? Do you vote your Chief in yearly? What about the officers? If so some may feel popularity wins over enforcement. This is bad for the overall mission of the department. Also causes a safety issues because policies are not being followed, training is not being completed and breeds lack of respect within the organization which can spill over onto the fireground.

If not, then discuss upholding the requirements, announce as of today we will be enforcing the SOG's to include the attendance requirement and some will have to be suspended if we continue on the path we currently are. Some may ultimately decide to quit, so be it as they are probably not in the 1/3 percentage of hard workers who obey the requirements set forth.

I would address your dad two fold. First on the side (outside the department) I would ask him if he knows he is breeding the younger members to question ALL authority by his actions during your training? If he says no, then discuss the chain of command, paramilitary structure and how it was back in the day and that the younger firefighters have very little experience in either structure because this is the ME GENERATION. They are self sufficient, latch key kids, feed themselves, go where they want to go, do what they want and have most of their young life because both parents worked, or they are from a divorced family. We cannot support the continuance of this behavior within the fire department organization. It is unsafe and disrespectful.

During the Chief Officer's Meeting: we would reiterate the same issue but not personally about your dads actions but as a group who should support the mission on a unified front. If this cannot be obtained than I would suggest someone be demoted or not run for the position next round. The FIRE CHIEF needs to be onboard with my reports findings, otherwise the cause is only what he feels is important.

Line Officers Meeting with the Chief Officers: Reiterate the re-structure, lack or respect, ask if anyone has personal conerns, ideas. Then I would report the SOG's will start to be enforced. Identify that Training is Key to your success and safety. Some feel this meeting is a waste and do it with the firefighters. (department wide) By doing so, you are telling the line officer's they are no more important than their subordinates. Remember: You must "Give Respect to Gain Respect" Don't leave out the officer's in the trenches.

Full Department Wide Meeting: Identify your goals as an organization, requirements that must be met and enforcement from this point forward. Values of respect, organizational structure, chain of command and discipline that would need to be addressed should subjects circumvent the system. Lay it on the table...but it is not open for debate or discussion. You have done that already with your officer staff.

Training: Complete a full year's worth of training schedule; disseminate the schedule to all and state that if people have pre-known issues with dates and the schedule, they should seek the Training Officer to request an approved absence.

At the end of the first year, we would sit down as a department (another department wide meeting) and brainstorm on what the membership feels is important to focus on for training and future goals.

Prioritize the list and formulate year two's training schedule.

Bottom line is this, the first time someone needs to be addressed post department wide meeting for his or her actions., the entire department is going to be watching your actions to see if everything you said and spoke of; was just a lipstick policy.

Feel free to email me; check out my FFN page or my business website. Take and stay safe but more importantly best of luck, you are now on a mission to improve your department!

FETC

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Permalink Reply by Jake Luker on February 25, 2009 at 10:28am

:-) Nice to know I'm not alone. Folks ask me what we're doing for training, I reply: you got a training schedule, didn't you? Look it up..

I laughed outloud when you said pull rank on him. This perhaps is an altogether separate issue on our department. Rank is signified by our helmet color, but outside of that, it doesn't mean a whole lot more. Sure, you have the select few that actually respect the ranks (chiefs, captains, etc.), but the "how we've always done it mentality" tends to take over. When I first got on the department, I was told that even though command or your branch officer could give you an assignment, you had the right to tell him essentially "shove it" and not have to listen to it.... totally undermining the whole ICS structure. That's not to say our guys aren't skilled firefighters. It's just that they tended to know what jobs needed to be done and proceeded to do them as they saw fit.

Again, since I've been on, I've been one of the driving forces to bring us into the 21st century of thought on many things, including ICS; explaining its benefits, safety checks, etc. Everyone will agree in the classroom that this is the way to go. But the minute we set foot on the fire scene, it's back to the old ways, and what IC asks for seldom gets followed through like he wants it to.

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Permalink Reply by turk182 on February 25, 2009 at 10:31am

I have problems with people attending, particapating when they are there and taking the classes seriously. I tried to be their friend and it is not working so now I am going to have to start making examples of people by calling them out.

As far as your dad goes I would talk to him at home and tell him that he should not undermine you when your teaching training classes because it is setting a bad example in front of the other firefighters. Explain to him that he might not like the way the new training is done but he should not pick you apart because of it.

I know dealing with family is hard because my father,4 brothers, and 2 sisters were all in the same department.
They never gave me or any one else problems during training or calls but the pranks they pulled did get nerve racking at times.

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Permalink Reply by Rob M on February 25, 2009 at 10:36am

With the father issue, I can somewhat relate. My father has many years and many years as an officer on me. However, just because he has been around does not mean that he cannot learn from what I've learned, what they taught 35 years ago, and what they teach now are a little different. You need to carry on when your father tries to cut you down or undermine you in class. By responding, you step out of the role of authority by allowing him to dictate your actions, and you provoke him to take it further and repeat the action next month. By not gracing him with a response and carrying on with the lesson, it sets the tone that you and your members are there to train. Sure, I cut up in class, especially with instructors I'm familiar with, but when its time to get down to business, they put their foot down. One of my close friends here in the department is the County BLS Coordinator and was my EMT-B instructor. I've known him for many, many years; since I was in fire truck undies. But when he felt I was disrupting class he would cut me off, and then pull me aside when he got a chance and give me some more words of "encouragement". You need to shut down your father, as tough as it may be, when he steps out of line, and then talk to him privately when you get the chance.

As for the turnout at training, I am in a combination system. The career guys do in-service training all the time, and some of the volunteers do the same. However, many of my volunteer counterparts feel that "its not THEIR job," or they don't have the time, etc. Most of them are also the ones who put in the bare minimums AT BEST. There is a growing number of people in my LFRD that would like to start clearing the roster of inactive, non-life members, and recruit new, young people to fill the "voids" left by the departed fair weather members. The odds are that 1-in-10 rookies in the volunteer fire/rescue service, will not make 2 years with the department, particularly with my department, who has an extensive process to qualify to ride observer, much less ride as minimum manning. But we want to get more people in, train them up, and build the volunteer shifts on nights/weekends. However, most of us are young and overruled by the older, "100 years of tradition, unhampered by progress" members and our efforts are shot down. Our recruiting is a joke, there are many people out there who always wanted to be firefighters, but have not realized that dream, and we can make that dream come true, but we are not making ourselves as visible as we should. But I digress, if they do not want to train, then that's fine - not really, but there's not much gonna be done about it in the current firehouse politics climate that we live in. What you can do is work with those who will train, get them trained to the highest level, that way, your upper echelon is the people you trained and who went elsewhere to get more advanced training. There are plenty of great courses out there, and the more they take, the more hands on skills they will be able to do (with that comes time in the classroom). Once you have established your leadership, you can then affect change in your department. Those who choose not to train will be left behind, and should be passed up for promotions and leadership opportunities, as well as choice riding positions. Riding the s**t box or a comparably undesirable piece for a year or so should bring people into your office asking when they can ride the big red ding-ding again. You have then established your authority over them (I know it sounds harsh, but we have senior officers for a reason) and they have to listen to you, and thus comply with your training standards, thus making more and more people train. Now, people may quit because of this, some of them may come back because they miss it, some of them will be replaced by new members you can mold and shape how you see fit as they are new and impressionable.

I've written a lot but the big thing is that being the big boss means you are not always everybody's friend. You wear the brass because they trust you to make the tough decisions. Therefore, you have to assert yourself as the leader first and foremost. If you try to please everyone, you will accomplish nothing and become unpopular on all sides. Then, you need to come up with ways to make training become something people want/need to do. And third, start recruiting, because you will piss people off, and they'll run off, and they'll need to be replaced.

Just my words of advice from my observations and the advice I am receiving right now as they are progressing us into more and more responsibility/leadership at my dept.

Good luck and stay safe.

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Permalink Reply by kevin harris on February 25, 2009 at 11:26am

first off i would take your dad aside and tell him look if you dont like the way im conducting training to give you a hand doing the training instead of be one of the problems... and as far as membership goes during training we have a policy that if you miss two consecutive trainings you loose your gear and your not going to run the calls until you train... explain to them there not only putting the community's life at risk by not training their also putting their own lives at risk...

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