Who should be in charge of the apparatus while responding to the scene?

This topic comes up when I am assigned to engineer. I believe that the engineer should have the say what goes on inside the cab while the vehicle is in motion. My reason is if your involve in a wreck who is going to be sited. In a case that happen in a county next to mine a quint responding code 3 T-Boned a car a killed the occupants inside. The driver tried in court for the deaths, and the local media covered the story only on the driver. My understanding is that the officer riding in the appropriate seat was not charged or any actions taken. Only internal. With this accident speed was a factor and responding to a general alarm drop. Looking for opinions on this and if some dept's have SOG's on the topic.

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Permalink Reply by Rob M on February 23, 2009 at 8:45pm
In our department, both the driver and officer are in charge for the unit's operation. If the unit wrecks, both of you will be standing tall before the man. While the driver will be cited, both of them will have to go down to medical and be drug tested. The driver is in charge of the units operation en route and on scene. The officer is ultimately responsible for all people on board, their actions, and their well being. Thus why both of them are in trouble if the unit wrecks. The officer is overseeing the driver, and on our new units, the officer has a speedometer on his/her side of the unit, that way he can tell the driver to slow down. As for previous comments that the officer may have been donning his PPE or SCBA en route, that is a big no-no here. All PPE is to be on prior to embarking and SCBA is to be donned on scene. The unit is not to move until all crew members are seatbelted in. Safety is first, and while it may take a little longer to get to the call, at least you got there. Very rarely, is there an incident that the outcome will be severely altered by the few extra seconds. And if they are, then most likely, your presence would not have changed much. Another thing our agency has is dash cameras that record audio and video forward-facing and rear-facing (into the passenger compartment). In the event of a crash, the 10 seconds leading up to the crash are stored to a hard drive for review.
Permalink Reply by the Happy Medic on February 23, 2009 at 9:01pm
The airbrake only comes off when everyone is aboard and belted. Seem unrealistic? We can save a life by waiting 10 seconds for everyone to get their belt on. Dressing and donning SCBA? DONNING SCBA while moving? Talk about a dangerous activity that saves no time.

Get your SCBAs out of the cab. Mount them in a cabinet outside. Use the time at the scene donning them to take note of conditions and discuss your plan. Too often I see video of firefighters stepping off the engine with their mask and hood on or even on air already.

The driver has ultimate responsibility for the vehicle when it is in motion. As soon as the brake is set the Officer can scream all they want. All you have to do is say, "Officer X would not buckle his/her safety belt." That's all the coverage you need.

the Happy Medic
Permalink Reply by Nathan Whoric on February 24, 2009 at 7:24pm
engineers drive and thats it. thats what there job is. the officer in the front seat runs the radio, sirens, air horn and helps the engineer with directions. as for the FFs in the, listen to updates, make sure ur gear is on correctly and keep quiet so the officer and driver can do their jobs. the LT(95% of our calls has both our capt and lt on the truck) controls the back of truck and gives out our jobs.

if speed is to blame then hell yes its the drivers fault. thats y the drivers are the most senior(normally) members who have the most experience and should KNOW WHEN TO SLOW DOWN. the high ups in the dept/co should make sure that all the drivers go through regular training and take accident avoidence class atleast 1 time a year if not more. u can blame anyone else unless someone else was distracting him or causing his attention to be taken away from his job.

stay safe and have a great day
Permalink Reply by the Happy Medic on February 24, 2009 at 11:15pm
The airbrake only comes off when everyone is aboard and belted. Seem unrealistic? We can save a life by waiting 10 seconds for everyone to get their belt on. Dressing and donning SCBA? DONNING SCBA while moving? Talk about a dangerous activity that saves no time.

Get your SCBAs out of the cab. Mount them in a cabinet outside. Use the time at the scene donning them to take note of conditions and discuss your plan. Too often I see video of firefighters stepping off the engine with their mask and hood on or even on air already.

The driver has ultimate responsibility for the vehicle when it is in motion. As soon as the brake is set the Officer can scream all they want. All you have to do is say, "Officer X would not buckle his/her safety belt." That's all the coverage you need.

EDIT-This comment was posted on another page by error and is repeated here.

HM
Permalink Reply by Kevin Teel on February 25, 2009 at 9:05am
My personal opinion is that the officer or acting officer is in charge while responding. The reason for this is that the driver has enough on his mind as it is. When and if the officer feels that the driver is driving erratically, then he should tell the driver to slow down or whatever the case may be.
Permalink Reply by SMOKEnPipesJim on February 25, 2009 at 11:00am
What does your state law say? Liability for correctLegal Operation is upon you the driver, as is "legal operation" of warning devices....step upto the departmental sog's as was already stated something should down about this issue.. The operator of the vehicle holds the legal responsbility and ultimately will be charged no matter if the officer was yelling or layed back,blocking a rearview mirror or not .. The law in my state states youwill operate an emergency vehicle within the law, May only proceed at intersections traffic signals with warning devices activated after coming to a fullstop going to court, jury trial, wait till the public finds out you have traffic control features and Still Crashed they'll hang you out to dry... Over controling officers can be taken down a notch when nessisary...Just pull over, and tell them to drive.... tehn you can siton the airhorn until the compressor glows red

While the officer isinchargeof the crew and oversees the safe operation and operations in getting to the scene..No Doubt can and SHOULD be of great asssitance to the driver, The driver whosits in the box and says The officer Said it was clear so I didnt bother looking ...........
Permalink Reply by Kevin Dunbar on February 25, 2009 at 4:39pm
Who goes to jail if someone gets killed as a result of gross negligence? The Driver Who gets sued and possibly fired if they sit and watch the driver drive like an idiot? The Officer and the driver. Who has overall say once on scene for rig placement Command or the Officer.
Permalink Reply by CHIEF NORMAN on February 25, 2009 at 5:11pm
WELL SOMETHING TO REMEMBER IS ALL YOUR APPARATUS BOUGHT FROM 2009 AND ON WILL HAVE DATA RECORDERS IN THEM PER NFPA 1901 2009 EDITION, SO IN THIS CASE AND IN MOST CASES, THE MAN IN THE RIGHT HAND SEAT SHOULD BE THE ONE RESPONSIBLE, EVEN THOU THE OPERATOR/DRIVER SHOULD BE THE ONE PAYING ATTENTION...THE ENGINE MAN IS IN CHARGE OF THAT APPARATUS, BUT HE IS NOT IN CHARGE OF THE OPERATIONS AND RESPONDING TO THE SCENE IS PART OF ON GROUND FIRE OPERATIONS, I MEAN WHO IS TO SAY THAT THE OFFICER DIDNT TELL HIM TO TAKE A TURN AT A CERTAIN PLACE OR SPEED UP OR GO AROUND ANOTHER VEHICLE...TO ME ON THE INCIDENT THAT HAPPEN NEXT TO YOU, THE OFFICER WAS JUST AS RESPONSIBLE AS THAT DRIVER....AND I TELL YOU WHAT IN THIS CRAZY WORLD AND WITH THE CRAZY DRIVERS OUT THERE, YOU AS AN ENGINE MAN, I CAN SAY THIS THE MORE RESPONSIBILITY YOU TAKE UPON YOURSELF THE MORE YOUR RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY AND ALL ACTIONS TAKING IN A COURT OF LAW...
Permalink Reply by Billy B Casteel JR on February 25, 2009 at 7:57pm
The engineer should focus on driving not what is going on inside the truck. That is the job of the officers. The driver should focus on the traffic.
Permalink Reply by Robert on February 25, 2009 at 9:33pm
The driver is responsible.
Permalink Reply by Drew Tenhundfeld on February 25, 2009 at 9:40pm
I would agree with you that the driver/engineer need to stay focus on the road. That is hard to do when you have to look out the right side of the truck.
Permalink Reply by Drew Tenhundfeld on February 25, 2009 at 9:47pm
I want to thank everyone that replied to this form. Please feel free to add more. What I am going to do is take the information from this and put some type of guideline together and submit it to the chief. Again thanks again for all the information. Take Care and Be Safe.

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