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Question for the Chief's ??
We had a 2 car PI accident last week and it was at a very tricky intersection. The intersection is a 4 way stop and is in a bowl style shape with the intersection in the bottom of the bowl. The roads were pure ice too. We had a firefighter of 4 years respond in his POV and came up over the hill, towards the intersection and could not stop. Instead of plowing through everyone he took the ditch and rolled his truck over onto the top of his roof (totalling his truck). Everyone else was able to stop at some point and time but we all know what type of intersection it is.
My question to you is what would you do, if this was one of your firefighters? As in what type of actions if any would you take with this firefighter.
My question to you is what would you do, if this was one of your firefighters? As in what type of actions if any would you take with this firefighter.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by anne potter on
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I would have to agree this guy may have learned his lesson just from this... The grief he is going to get already will be enough.. I agree a small committee and a discussion to be made with young man and thats it..Watch him and see what happens.. FETC accidents are labled accidents for a reason ... But I am sure you are one of those who won't admit you drove fast ever.... I am admitting it I did.. Drove in a corn field once when I was younger going to fast to the fire. Came around a corner in the dense fog did not realize there was a corner and ended up in a corn field... Guess what I learned and you know the building was still on fire when I got there,and was a surround and drowned ...
Get the commitee together and talk to him..Then watch and see.... Beating him up on here yea......
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Permalink Reply by FETC on
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First off, I am not beating up this individual. I never said anything negative or how to handle this incident. I never said terminate him, suspend him, re-train him. But I definately didn't say, "Oh hey, give him a break "it was just an accident"
If I was the person in charge of this department, he would have his privledge to respond with lights and sirens SUSPENDED. My department, my liability, my lights/siren card that authorizes you to use them. If he wasn't formally trained with an EVO class before the incident, (shame on me) If so, then the conditions of his suspension would require the firefighter get EVO certified. While under suspension, he would ONLY be allowed to respond to the fire station with the flow of traffic, thus riding out the suspension as non-driving qualified firefighter who is definately not driving any department apparatus until the terms of his suspension contract be met.
He gets caught speeding, responding with his lights/sirens, during the suspension then he is gone. Don't need an immature, disrespectful, reckless liability who cannot follow the simplest directions on my department.
Why? If this was not his first vehicle incident, or he has received previous response complaints about his driving, then there is a pattern here. It was "just an accident" is the easy way out. Doesn't fix a damn thing and if it happens again you have nothing in writing as to how you reduced your liability from a pre-existing problem... and lawyers love that kind of stuff. If you or your chief officers don't want to run the place as a professional organization or as a business then they should resign. The next preventable vehicle collision with the indentified problem firefighter may involve your family on the other end. I would bet your judgement would be different then, but why should it be???
We are in the business to Protect and Serve not Endanger and Harm...
Guess what, get with the times... the standard terminology for today when two vehicles collide is called MVC -Motor Vehicle Collision. There are very few things that are considered a true unexpected accident.
Do I sound bitter, probably, but I've been on an engine, driving on a very icy highway as fellow civilian motorists who knew more than me, decided to pass my engine that was responding at the appropriate speed for the dangerous icy road conditions. I guess people in this world who are too busy to drive at the appropriate speed can always hide behind your words "I'm sorry, it was an accident"
An accident has no fault associated with the word or the parties involved had NO idea the incident would have occurred from pre-existing knowledge...
BTW - three of the cars who decided to pass my responding fire engine also slid into the collision scene that was originally 3 vehicles but quickly turned into 6 cars involved with one suffering paralysis from the secondary collision.
Per your terms, I guess this is why FD's are in existance. We go to accidents, ignorance, or whatever.
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Permalink Reply by Tom Eades on
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In our department, anyone involved in an accident is not permitted to drive an apparatus for two weeks--even if the accident occurred in their personal vehicle. While seeming to be punishment, it's actually meant to provide a cooling-off period, to allow the driver to recover from the trauma of the accident, and thereby minimizing the distraction that might cause another one. I'd definitely have a one-on-one with the subject, to see how they are doing, and to review departmental policy. Some rudimentary driver's safety training may be in order here. Any further actions would need to be based on the history of the individual.
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Permalink Reply by T.J. on
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I was stating that getting into an acident can happen to anyone where it be defensive or offensive driving styles and you can't help the defensive driving unless you just stop driving period. No our department won't cover his damages we di not make him put lights and sirens on his truck thats his call and it's his problem if he get's in trouble with them. Would your department cover the damages or do you know of one that does, just curious why you asked that question?
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I had a POV truck get totaled on a vollie department, it was parked at an accident scene and got totaled by a secondary accident on icy roads. Yes, Anne, another time I drove appropriately for the whether conditions but another asshole motorist thought they were invisiable to the whether. The guy said, "sorry" and it was an accident.
Department turned their back on the entire issue, left the damages to the owner, and the insurance company almost didn't pay as they were not informed that the POV was running as a vollie firefighter with the red lights / sirens. Which I guess, per State Farm, you are supposed to notify the insurance agent before...
Others here have said there department will cover POV accidents.
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Make it what you want it still was a accident...
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I'll have to check into the covering of the vehicle with my chief, thanks FETC.
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I am not trying to be an dick, the issue of POV accidents have hit close to home. I have seen too many of them over the years. Some the firefighter's fault and others were due to the actions of another non-department person. All were at the fault of someone though.
Now that I am a Chief Officer, I am always looking to correct preventable actions. So just curious but how did your department handle this incident?
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Ok call it a dual... I do see your side I really do I just think because you have had personnel incidents .. That I probally if that would have happen to me ..I would feel the same okkkk.... But I still believe that when that siren blows we all step out of our shells and we all tend to hurry more than what we would normally... I don't think It was the smartest thing he did all day,but I'm sure that he has learned his own personnel lesson with totaly his truck and maybe realizing that he could have hurt more people due to his control.... I would hope he has learned his lesson..... But FETC dual ok..... even up and ready to move on to the next post.... That is the joy of this forum is to be able to discuss things... I for one enjoy debating,but I respect everyone on here,and their personnel feelings ..
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OK- Truce LOL
In the last post below I did mention how I would document and handle the situation. This is because I now am in a position to fix problems, they must be handled professionally with documentation to the corrective measures taken to fix the inappropriate actions.
I have had to deal with firefighters wrecking equipment, hitting the station, and motor vehicle collisions (rolling over a fire truck) Did any of them mean to do any of it? Absolutely not, but they definately needed to be handled, documented and not just say, "don't do it again" the insurance companies and our bosses hold us accountable as well.
Otherwise you have nothing to show for it...
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Yea I saw that after I had posted ..So yea I can see your side as trying to prevent something like that....
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Permalink Reply by PFC Harmon on
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I'm not a chief but I'll say accidents happen. They guy could have been going to fast for the road, bad tires, etc. The good thing is that he went into the ditch and no one was hurt. In my dept. if you have a complaint lights or no lights, responding to the scene or the station we have a meeting with the officers and the firefighter involved. Three complaints and your gone. If another firefighter complains about another firefighters operation of an appuratus we have a meeting find out what happened and if the firefighter was doing something wrong he cant drive for 2 months. Also with state farm you have to notify them if you respond to a fire scene with your pov, like FETC I learned the hard way. Stay safe
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